[anzac] RICK JOYNER REPLIES

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From: "ANZAC Prophetic List" <revival2@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:38:33 -0600
"RICK JOYNER Replies...."
-by Andrew Strom.

This week, Rick Joyner finally came out with a kind-of response
to my article "WHY I LEFT THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT".
Sadly, instead of taking up the actual issues involved, he chose
to make a very personal attack on me. I have to say, his
statements are literally the very opposite of the truth. They came
from hearsay (-because he was not actually there), and I cannot
believe he would publish such things with so little factual backing.

Here is what he published in this week's "Update":

"I was recently asked “to discern” some statements by a man who
was upset by a conference in Kansas City that some friends of
mine had hosted, and had therefore “left the prophetic movement”
(whatever that means). The statements that I was shown were so
full of enmity that I was shocked any Christian could not discern
the source of them.....

"With just a little investigation into the man who wrote with such
enmity against the conference in Kansas City, its hosts, and
then the whole prophetic movement, was that he had sought to
be recognized and given a platform at the conference in order to
steer it in the direction he thought it should go. He was so pushy
and full of the wrong spirit that they refused to give him any
platform, and he got offended. I was not there, but this was the
report I received from everyone who was there, and it sure sounds
like selfish ambition, jealousy, and as is clearly stated above, is
not the wisdom that comes down from above, but below."
[-Rick Joyner, 'Word for the Week', March 28, 2005].

ANDREW STROM again:  As I said, I cannot believe that Rick
would come out with such statements based on hearsay
rather than fact. The truth of what happened was the exact
opposite of what is represented above.

The three main leaders of the Kansas City conference were Paul
Keith Davis, Bob Jones and Bobby Conner. Just before the first
meeting I was able to visit with each of them briefly in the ante-room
where they were gathered with friends and visitors. I introduced
myself as a leader of a Prophetic fellowship in the city. (-Which
was true. In fact, we held our regular meetings in the same
building that they were using). I was the very opposite of "pushy".
God had woken me up with a word for the conference a couple
of days earlier - that it needed to be a "Conference of repentance".
I almost never get woken up by God in that way - and it was
clearly Him. But I knew that I needed to be very careful NOT to
come across as some "prophetic nutcase" who wants to "deliver
their word". I knew that in order to be taken seriously, I needed
to be the OPPOSITE of that. I have run prophetic meetings for
years myself, and I know what it is like to have strange people
forcing "words" upon you. That is the LAST thing I wanted to be like.

So we sat and chatted for awhile. I had spoken with Bob Jones
on the phone several times and he had invited me to come say
"hello" when he was in town. So we sat quietly together. When
I brought up the fact that I believed it was supposed to be a
'Repentance Conference' he seemed to agree with me. I told him
that God had given me a strong word for the Conference, and
asked if he would look it over. He said "Yes" and I believe he
meant it. I gave him the twin-sheets that the word was written on
and it was time to go.

A few moments later I got talking to Paul Keith Davis. It was a
very polite and open-hearted conversation. We talked about the
situation in Kansas City. And again, when I said that God had
told me that this needed to be a 'Repentance conference', he
seemed to agree with me very strongly. He said this was the kind
of thing God had been speaking to them. Again I gave him the
word, and again he looked me straight in the eye and promised
to read it.

With Bobby Conner it was more difficult, because we were on
the move out of the ante-room. But he had seen me in there with
the guys, and again he promised to read it.

Was there any pushiness? None at all. Was there even a HINT
that I wanted to get up on stage and speak? NO - certainly not.
I was there to simply place that word in their hands and try and
ensure that they would actually read it. I believe God ordered my
steps that day. The word was delivered and there was no
"striving" at all. I never did get the opportunity to speak with them
again. But I felt clearly from God that my job was done.

I have to say though, that I was devastated and deeply saddened
by what actually took place at the Conference. It really was the
last straw for me. -The very opposite of a "Repentance Conference".
It was shocking - it really was. For those who have not read it,
below is the article that I published several days afterward - the
one that caused all the controversy. See if you can spot the
"enmity" that Rick Joyner speaks of. In my view it is not there
at all. I simply said the things that needed to be said - with great
sadness:
---------------
"I'm LEAVING the PROPHETIC MOVEMENT"
-by Andrew Strom. (Nov 3, 2004).

RE:  The KC 'Whitedove' Conference (-Main speakers:  Bob Jones,
Paul Keith Davis, Bobby Conner, John Paul Jackson - plus Jim
Goll and others).

It is with great sadness that I make the following report.

I said last week that the 'Whitedove' conference in Kansas City
this past weekend would be a pivotal one. It certainly was
pivotal for me personally. I wish I could say that there was deep
repentance - that the preaching was incredibly anointed and the
crowd were on their faces crying before God. I wish I could say
that, but I can't.  In fact, it seemed to me that the opposite was
true. The saddest thing of all is that many people probably came
away from this conference saying how "wonderful" and "uplifting"
it was (-just as they always do). But I have to tell you, I was
grieved to the core by it. Many parts of it I would even describe as
spiritually "sick".

Some people believe that the fall of Paul Cain into serious sin is
some kind of aberration - just one individual's problem. But I am
convinced that the fall of Paul Cain (-who was recognised worldwide
as the 'father' of this movement) is a symptom of a much wider
disease. The whole movement is sick. As I have stated in previous
articles, the 'Prophetic' as we know it is really a "fallen" movement -
since the early 1990's. But I always held out hope that it would
somehow turn around and get back on track again. In fact, I believed
that this conference was a heaven-sent opportunity for that to happen.

However, after what I saw this weekend, I no longer believe this is
possible. The deception is now too deep. This movement is being
"given over to believe a lie" and I want no part of it. I am cutting
myself off, because I cannot afford the disease to spread into what
we ourselves are doing. Things have now gotten so bad that we have
to separate ourselves - and to do so publicly.

As you know, I requested special prayer from you all last week that
a true spirit of Repentance might prevail in this conference. The
reason I made this request was because God had woken me up
at 6 am the previous Friday and given me a strong word about the
conference. (God only wakes me up like this quite rarely - perhaps
five times a year).

The word He gave me was that this must be a 'repentance' conference -
that this was in essence the "last chance" for the Prophetic
movement because it had become more and more corrupt -
centered around money and 'ear-tickling' words, false prophecy and
so-on. This was a gathering of KEY prophets at a moment in time
when the 'father' of the movement had just fallen. It was God's ideal
moment for a truly "solemn assembly". (And yes - I did write and
pass this word on - in person - to the three main leaders of the
conference).

However, what actually eventuated at this event seemed to me to
be more akin to a circus than a solemn assembly. The music,
the concert-style lighting, the stage dancers, the groaning tables
stacked high with books and CD's for sale, the 'ear-tickling', the
hype, the $40.00 door fee (plus extra offerings taken each session) -
and that's just for starters.

What really bothered me about the weekend was the total lack
of any truly 'prophetic' preaching. There was some good stuff on
Self-pity and Bitterness right near the start, but after that it was
mostly downhill. As always, there were plenty of anecdotes and
tales of angelic visitations, etc. There were Scriptures quoted and
a few helpful insights. But as far as a message that truly pierces
and challenges and convicts - well, don't go looking for that in THIS
prophetic movement! In fact, there were warnings AGAINST any
message that might come across as even slightly "condemning",
and there was even one of those cute talks on the need for
"loving oneself", etc.

Today's prophets seem to talk a lot ABOUT the 'sword of the Lord'
but never actually bring it to bear. They bring no piercing word. And
thus the entire movement is open to great deception. And instead of
REPENTANCE, people are getting all kinds of counterfeit spiritual
experiences. There seems to be almost no discernment at all.

The ON-STAGE DANCING throughout this conference was a good
example. Now, I myself am a rock musician, but from the beginning
these dance items had a rather 'wild' aspect to them that truly made
me uncomfortable in my spirit. There was even one that came
across like a sensual 'Harem' dance. Much of it really felt "off" -
and almost anyone who sees the videos will tell you so. Even the
worship had a very "tribal" feel to it at times. And by Day Three they
were doing dance items with just loud voodoo-style drums only -
and leaping around in a frenzied circle making weird cries to the
super-amplified beat. The feeling in the room was so oppressive and
"pagan" during this, that I could hardly even bear to stay in there.
Then came one of the most shocking statements of the whole
conference - from one of the main prophets. He got up and said
that people may feel uncomfortable with such obviously "pagan"
type dancing, but that it was originally God's type of dancing and
we were just now 'stealing back' what the pagans had stolen from God!

I have to admit, this was the last straw for me. What could be more
blatant? What kind of 'spirits' do they think are being transmitted to
people who open themselves up to that music?  There is no
discernment in this movement at all.

Now, I do not primarily blame the dancers. They were young and
possibly immature. (-They weren't actually from 'Whitedove' itself).
Clearly, most of the blame lies with the main prophets who invited
them in and openly endorsed and promoted what was happening
the whole time. They would get up and publicly acclaim these
dance items, thus ensuring that the spirit of it would pervade the
entire event. And indeed it did - more and more.

Remember, most of the major "movers and shakers" of the Prophetic
movement were at this conference, going along with this stuff. I
repeat what I said earlier: This movement demonstrates absolutely
NO DISCERNMENT. I urge everyone to GET OUT NOW, before
even worse is brought in. I believe this movement is RIGHT NOW
being given over to deception by God - and it is going to get much worse.

Even the 'spiritual' moments in this conference often had strong
touches of "Charis-mania" excess about them. And this was not
the 'harmless, silly' kind of excess, either. It was at a level where I
believe demonic spirits of deception were clearly at work. By the
last session the audience was so hyped that they threw away all
inhibition and leapt into the 'pagan' dancing themselves with wild
abandon. And one of the main prophets even got up and announced
that there were angels in the room going around "blowing on people's
fingers" if only they would lift them up in the air. That particular
part
sounds silly, but actually the whole thing by this stage had become
awful beyond words. Virtually every day I came home utterly grieved
and depressed. I had come to this conference with great expectancy
and hope, thinking that the return of Bob Jones may bring a renewal
of all that was originally good about this movement. I literally came
as a 'friend' and they turned me into an enemy in the space of three
days.

Below are the SPECIFIC THINGS that God told me He has against
this movement as a whole:
-The giving and receiving of "ear-tickling" words.
-The giving and receiving of money in expectation of prophecy.
-False words and false teaching.
-The lack of a true Repentance message.
-The spiritual 'blindness' that allows familiar spirits and spirits of
divination to flourish.
-The failure of this movement to judge itself, meaning that God
must judge it.
-The idolising of well-known prophets - placing them on a pedestal.
-And so on....

WHAT NOW for us?

Well, obviously, with great sadness we must now totally cut
ourselves off from today's Prophetic Movement. Any related links
and articles will be removed from our web-site immediately.

As you know, for some time now I have spoken of the 'John-the-
Baptist' type ministries that must arise to preach REPENTANCE
in the Western nations. -Preachers of righteousness with a piercing
word, like the Finneys, the Wesleys and the Whitefields of old.
Such ministries are essential for true Revival to come. I now see
that this new move must completely "separate itself" from the
influence of the existing Prophetic movement. We need a
completely 'NEW' Prophetic, and to keep it from being tainted by
the sickness that has infected the old, there must be a complete
cutting-off and a "leaving behind".

I urge all of you to take this before the Lord for yourself. We live
in very dangerous times, and I believe the old Prophetic literally
stands under the judgement of God.

For our ministry in Kansas City, what this means is that we have
to go right back to the original calling and mandate over this city,
and build on that. We cannot build on the movement that came
after. The 21 days of prayer and fasting, the comet that came,
and the comission to preach Repentance to the Lukewarm
church - these were all foundational elements. So too were the four
standards of "Holiness of heart, Unwavering faith, Day and Night
prayer, and Extravagant Giving to the Poor". The original Prophetic
move here seemed to be relatively pure for only a few years - and
then quickly became a quagmire. So we have to stick to only the
original foundations - and build on that...

There were prophecies last year that a 'new' prophetic - a "second
phase" was about to begin. I do believe this. But what we need to
make sure of is that it does not become ensnared in the garbage
of this previous movement. It must be totally NEW.

I would ask that you forward this email to as many Lists as you
can, and to your Christian friends. We want it as widely known
as possible that we have cut off all relations with the current
Prophetic movement - and why we did it.

To email me with any feedback, please write to:
prophetic@...

As you can tell, it has been a terribly sad and devastating weekend
for myself and my family. We would truly appreciate your prayers
at this time, my friends.

God bless you all.

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom.