Lots of good stuff, Brian!  I can see you have thought a great deal re.
the issues discussed.

On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 01:16:39 -0700 Brian Indrelie <BrIndrel@...>
writes:
>Conquerors in Christ-
>	Well, again I've got behind on me e-mail from the list, so I'm 
>again going
>to try to reply to all of the conversation in the past while in one 
>letter. 
>	First of all, there is the whole D&D thing. I really don't 
>want to bring
>it up again, but I want to state my position. First of all, I am not
>totally against D&D. As I've said before, in the very basic rules of 
>the
>game, I find nothing of significance that is evil. 

I've been through this in a number of posts - please check the previous
ones I've made.  It is not only what *is* there, but what *isn't* there
that makes the game a danger (ie consequesnces for sin).




What little is can 
>be
>easily rooted out. 

I would argue that there is more than a little . . . if you rooted it
out, you'd pull what seems to make it fun for a number of the players
I've known.


I wouldn't doubt that in a good, Christian 
>environment
>it could be played without serious consequence. However, I am 
>definitely
>not saying that it cannot be abused. My own experience with secular 
>rpgs
>has shown that quite clearly. 

I'm glad we agree here.  Personally, I now avoid secular RPGs, though I
have played them in the past.  A number of secular RPGs that exist on the
market now I would classify in the "Damaging to me, but not neccesarily
to others" category.


I think more often than not it does end 
>up
>bad. I would have to side with John completely in his debate with the
>CRPGA. It sounds as if the people on the list were thinking more of 
>their
>own interests than of God's. Secular rpgs are definitely not 
>neccesary, and
>thus I would not personally encourage them to Christians, yet at the 
>same
>time I cannot condemn them. I say this simply because while I think 
>D&D can
>easily lead to evil, I think it would be irrational to say that it 
>ALWAYS
>leads to evil. 

Agreed, on the subject of secular RPGs.


If controlled, I have in the past found this game to be
>quite harmless. The reason it was controlled, was because I was the 
>dm. The
>battle was between Good and Evil, and the characters were good. Again, 
>I
>definitely wouldn't want to encourage this, all I'm saying is that I 
>don't
>think D&D is inherently evil, and it can be used in an appropriate way 
>if
>properly controlled. 

I don't believe I disagreed with this statement, Brian.  What I did say
on CRPGA was that even if your environment was properly controlled, it
may lead another to an uncontrolled one.

ie.  A younger person plays D&D in your (controlled) world, has fun,
moves away.  His past experience with D&D may lead him to hook up with
the other, far and away majority of D&D players, who play the rules "as
is".  That the "as is" rules are unacceptable from a Christian standpoint
and can lead folks in an unacceptable direction is a point that no one
has ever disputed with me, even the most persistent of arguers.
	I can see, though, how you'd arrive at your conclusions, Brian,
and don't want you to think I am slamming you; rather, I would suggest
that you think in terms of how even controlled D&D would affect your
players afterwards.  This was one reason I was reluctant to bring even my
game or DR to my students, since a couple of them had a prediliction for
taking something good & twisting it.  OTOH, the fact that my students all
got into Redemption "headed them off" from going into Magic, though one
tried Marvel and another two Star Wars.


The last time I said anything about this on the 
>net,
>someone said that perhaps the best reason for not playing D&D was 
>because
>it gives the appearance of evil. In regards to non-Christians I'd have 
>to
>disagree with this because 

the only people I ever knew that thought 
>D&D was
>evil have been non-Christians.

Is this a typo?


 As for being a stumbling block to the 
>faiths
>of others, I simply don't usually discuss my playing with other 
>believers.
>If you notice I have said very little about my past and present 
>experience
>with rpgs aside from DR. This is because I do not wish to be a 
>stumbling
>block to any of you who dislike it. As to the question of rather DR is 
>an
>rpg or not, I would have to agree with both sides, yet in a different 
>sort
>of way than others have. Amber said that it was not an rpg. In the 
>overall
>scheme of general play, it tends to be less so. Of all of my LRs, a 
>grand
>total of one has had experience with rpgs. He seems to enjoy DR very 
>much,
>yet he did say that DR seemed less designed to be an rpg. In a larger 
>view
>of things, DR tends not to be an rpg in the sense that too many limits 
>are
>put on players just in the way the world is designed in general. Yet 
>at the
>same time, there are spots in DR where the role-playing shines more
>briliantly than in any other rpg. One of my favorite role-playing
>experiences was in Part II of MoonBridge Raid where the LRs were 
>talking to
>the girl's father after rescuing her. I can't believe how long I 
>managed to
>keep them arguing on that ridiculous 'faith in faith' garbage. It was 
>a lot
>of fun to role-play that guy, and I think it was very interesting. The 
>sin
>enchantments, and the Great Rescue are some of the finest role-playing
>examples in the histroy of role-playing. Thus while limited, DR can be
>great for role-playing if you do it right, and it can still get the
>messages at the same time. Getting back to the point, I would like to 
>say
>that I hope none of you, especially John, will associate me with the 
>people
>at the CRPGA. It appears they have been very un-Christlike recently, 
>and if
>you give me the address, I might just join the group in order to take 
>a
>stand. Maybe some sound scripture could set them straight. 

I wouldn't advise it.  While there are ssome very decent folks, unless
you have a few hours to kill per day shovelling through slag, you'll be
very, very busy.

As I've said before, there were about 3-or-so folks who were quite
uncharitable, a few who could politely and charitably disagree.  The rest
would say nothing about what I saw as unfair pigeonholeing of folks who
disagreed with them on gaming issues.

I always 
>like a
>good fight in the name of the OverLord. 

Then, I would advise you to verse yourself on bigger issues of today such
as aborition or other life-rights issues.  Randy Alcorn's "Pro-Life
Answers to Pro-Choice Questions" tops my list, and you'll NEVER want for
opponents!:)

>says in James. The way we hope to do this is with an "accountability
>partner", a person who will be close to someone, and they could help 
>to
>push eachother along in their relationships with God. 

Great idea!

We both agreed 
>that
>to choose these we should draw names, so that God could have a hand in 
>the
>choosing, just as the eleven cast lots to choose Matthias as the 
>twelfth,
>replacing Judas. Yet he said that we should divide guys and girls. I 
>asked
>him why, and his answers were reasonable, yet in doing this we could 
>be
>limiting God's deciding power. 

Still, I can see this.  The way it was explained to me: male & female
biology and thought-processes are different, so is m&f spirituality. 
Women go through things men have trouble understanding as big issues, &
vice-versa.



We finally came to the conclusion to 
>pray
>about it in earnnest before making any decisions. I think it should be 
>the
>Committee's as well as other Christian institution's policy to pray 
>about
>such things before actually taking a stand. I'm no trying to say that 
>you
>guys haven't, only that I haven't seen any clear signs from God that 
>D&D is
>inertly evil, and that perhaps we should remain neutral on this issue 
>on
>less He shows us otherwise. To make a judgement otherwise would be to 
>put
>words into God's mouth, whether that is our intention or not. 

Again, not to slam you, but when I hear this I have to ask: what would be
a big enough sign?  I agree that it is a good thing to wait for God's
word, but what do we mean when we say that?  Fellow Chrsitians telling
us, a miracle, a chastisement?

I've learned that, in my case, if I am asking for a sign that I should
make it specific enough for me to know it's from God, but not so
outlandish that it counts as putting Him to the test (ie. I prefer doing
as Gideon did with the fleece, or David Wilkerson did with selling his TV
set in Cross and the Switchblade).

	
Besides,
>couldn't standing against D&D be a stumbling block to someone just as
>easily as advocating it? 

Yes, inasmuch as confronting a person on the subjects of an un-Christlike
lifestyle may be as great a stumbling block as advocating it.  Still,
Brian, if a friend were doing something wrong that you thought might hurt
them, would you not make them aware of your concern?




In any case, I just think that it would be 
>better
>to remain neutral on the issue until God shows us otherwise. I'm sorry 
>to
>have beaten this issue into the ground, but I simply wanted to settle 
>this
>matter in my mind.

Hopefully by the age of 16 all issues aren't completely settled!:) God
doesn't always appear in a cloud and tell us what is wrong, though. 
Please don't get me wrong, Brian; I am not, NOT, _NOT_ suggesting this
applies to you in the least.  I seriously think, though, it does does
apply to many of us, and I just wanted to cover the bases in case it did.


>	Another hot topic recently has been the argument rating on 
>DCs.
>I'd have to agree with the person(was it Rich?) who said that such 
>issues
>were not mathematical. It would be far better to make the LRs actually
>defeat the DCs in an argument by role-playing it out. Again here is a 
>great
>spot for superior role-play. In the same way it would help the players 
>deal
>with such false teachings in real life. Even here of course, for
>role-play's sake it would be good to know how crafty these DCs might 
>be
>individually.

Good point!  I like the idea of sharpening our debating skills in such an
environment!  My only concern is the burden it lays on the AM for
'rating' the effectiveness of the arguments of the LRs.




I've enjoyed reading your post, Brian!  God bless, and Hi to all the
folks I met up in Origins!  A Wonderful (if personally somewhat
[due-to-external-factors] stressful time!)!  As of this writing, Jeanna
has not gone into labor, my beeper still hasn't gone off, and all is
well.

God bless, 

John

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]