Winter, and all.... No, I'm not offended. I simply want "repentance" to be represented by its core meaning (well, at least how I was taught, "a change in heart which leads to a change in behavior"). Memorizing scripture is fine, but we already have a huge vehicle for that within DR, as well as a huge need for it. (By "huge need": It would be difficult-to-impossible to be successful with DR without significant memorization. I'm not saying that we need even more..., rather that I think other areas of discipleship need to be addressed, and repentance is one of them, distinct from Scripture memory.) And that can already be part of the change of heart. But we don't measure repentance at all in the "change of behavior" sense. I'd like to see that much more than I want one more memorizing thing. We have a lot of that already.... For some the memory work may be needed, but for many they already know God's word concerning their sin. The common point in repentance, however, is that change of heart which leads to a change of action, whether you already know book, chapter, and verse or not. Memorizing scripture doesn't define repentance. A changing of one's ways would certainly indicate (generally "prove", but not absolutely certainly) sincere repentance. Strictly in terms of what DR does now: 1. Handles situations in a Christian way (decisions made...) 2. Scripture memory - WRs for strength (attributes,...) 3. Scripture memory - Dragon Defense 4. Scripture memory - Evangelism 5. Scripture memory - Guidance (Life Verse WR) 6. Logic - applying WRs to mind speech. What areas are there in terms of discipleship? Scripture memory - knowing God's word Helping others Sharing (including meeting spiritual and physical needs) Handling Church matters (needs of widows/orphans, ...) Dealing with situations, typically in personal relationships (some of which aren't clear cut) Dealing with forgiveness when it is difficult Dealing with loving the unlovely or the unloveable. Dealing with church discipline Dealing with divisiveness : While some handle these all entirely with Scripture memory, I question that that is always the point. We are to worship God - The God of the Bible - but not the Bible itself. Before the arrows come flying, I'm NOT saying that ANY Scripture Memorization from DR should be *reduced*. I'm simply saying that without exploring other areas, or dealing with some other key issues, I'm not in favor of expanding *it's scope* (additional WRs are fine, they aren't a change in scope -- requiring an even bigger memory load by adding it to all repentance is expanding its scope - we already have a example of it in repentance in Psalm 51, The Transgression WordRune). I don't think anyone's heart is bad in this. I just think that a significant part of discipleship is developing judgement, and that in making more be dependent on scripture memory, we are getting "out of balance" in the overall picture of discipleship. Others, I'm sure, will say that there can't be enough emphasis on Scripture memory. Perhaps. But my capacity for good solid scripture memory is about one verse per week. More than that and I just get things mixed up. And that is when my sleep is going well. When it isn't, it is closer to one per month, or less. Now, does that mean I can't be discipled? I don't think so. Is all the discipleship you received or have given based on memorizing scripture (key word: memorizing - I think all should be rooted in Scripture in an ultimate sense)? And if DR is about discipleship, can't it be broader than "just" scripture memory, no matter how good that is? And if that's the case, why don't we work on repentance from the standpoint of what it is? If someone wants to memorize scripture as part of repentance, I have no qualms. If the gamemaster keeps track of that, and credits it as a WR, fine! But if the LightRaider falls back into sin, that is a bigger indication that the repentance wasn't full than "the memorization of scripture" was an indication that it was full. And, yes, people can have a rough road and still really have repented. I'm also seeing the wisdom of the original rules. These dealt with the group, and how it handled sin of one of its members. DR-1 uses sin (via sin enchantment, which the "player" may have not had a problem with individually, but was necessary so that the group could *learn to reach out to the sinner*) to teach the group. Within DR-1 the purpose of a sin enchantment is to teach the group. And it isn't to "punish" a player (per se) for poor choices related to the sin - when the sin enchantment is delivered via die roll from a dark creature. That character may not have had the problem, and not been role-played to have it by its player! Since a focus of the original rules was that the group could accomplish things that the individual could not, it makes sense to place the responsibility on the group for rescue from a sin enchantment. That was, after all, the point of the teaching. I agree, however, that this doesn't address repentance from the standpoint of the individual. To require memorization is to go beyond what repentance is. (changed heart leading to changed behavior) Generally, I already know all the scripture I'm violating when I recognize my sin. Rarely have I memorized scripture as part of the repentance process, but more as the process of strengthening my walk in an area I haven't dealt much with, or need to have scripture on the tip of my tongue for (the latter is mostly evangelism and somewhat dealing with doctrine). ************************************************************* Said another way: Scripture memorization isn't required for repentance here on earth. However, a change of heart (hard to measure) which leads to a change in behavior (easier to measure) is. That's what I'd prefer to look at in verifying repentance from the standpoint of the individual repenting. ************************************************************* I offset the above only because I didn't want it lost in the suffle, it wasn't intended as shouting (no "all caps"). I'm in no way offended. Nor am I intending to offend others. ---And if I've succeeded in offending others, I ask your forgiveness. I've been longwinded enough. Lord's blessings on all! Yours in Christ, ---Marty Marty Bartels -------------------------------------------------------- Home: <kb0vqk@...> Work: <BarteMR@...> > >I would disagree. I know that when I am convicted of sin in my life, >many times it comes by way of the scriptures and I lean on them for >strength in confronting my weaknesses. I use scripture often to help >me >to have a repentant heart, and I recommend it to new Christians who, >once >they sin, need to learn a starting point to repentance. I often refer >to >the words of David, "Create in me a pure heart and renew in me a right >Spirit" because sin pulls at the relationship bonds between myself >and >God. I think that using Scripture to begin the repentance process >(which >would be kind of hard to track in a game) is an excellent idea. I >also >think it should be the final blow necessary to breaking >sinenchantments. > >I hope I did not offend anyone, my husband says I can be a bit too >forthright. >I would value your opinion Joe, since you are the "rule dude". > >Wind to thy wings, >Winter >> > >>Lord's Blessings! >> >>Yours in Christ, >> >>---Marty Bartels >> >>-------------------------------------------------------- >>Home: <marty.bartels@...> >>Work: <marty_bartels@...> >>>What about requiring a repentance WordRune to be quoted >>>by the enchanted member for final release or even weakening >>>of the enchantment? It seems a more balanced approach to >>>the true godly response to our sins. >>> >>>If I'm off on this I can handle it. I've always been a little >>>off ;-) >>> >>>Jim Berger >>> >>>-- >>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to >>><dragonraid-unsubscribe@...> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 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