>Guess I too have too need to speak, follow carefully....... > > >On 24 Feb 99 10:29:39 CST "Eddy M.del Rio" <emdelrio@...> >writes: >>dragonraid-return-2815-emdelrio=3Dnetscape.net@... wrote: >> >>****Hello folks, I'm new to the list and have enjoyed the discussion, > >>but= >> now >>find it necessary to speak up.**** >> >>Greg wrote: >> Maybe this isn't the time or place to start a debate, but I >>would >>disagree with this idea, for all the relevance it has right now. I >>don't >>believe that God created the Earth all perfect with no hurts or >>anything.= >> >> >>**** My friend, it does not matter what you or I think, but what God >>has >>revealed to us in Scripture. On this subject, Scripture is clear. >>God s= >>aid >>that it was "Good." It can't be good in God's standard if it includes > >>pai= >>n, >>killing and suffering!**** = > > >When God told Eve what was going to happen because of her sin, Didn't >He >say He was going to "Increase" her pain in childbearing? Then God had >already had in mind for women to have pain in child birth..... Yeah, pain isn't always bad, and even if it is, its not sin. So, why couldn't bad stuff still happen. What if Adam fell out of a tree, would he just get up and be fine, or would he have a bruse? Or are you saying that NOTHING at all bad ever happened? Sounds more like heaven on Earth then I'm willing to think the garden was. >>i think when it says that now man will die because he has sinned it >>talks= >> >>of spiritual death. = >> >> >>****God said that because of sin, death entered. Now if this is >>_just_ >>spiritual death, then the teachings of Christ and the apostle Paul >are >>in= >> big >>trouble, because they assume not only spiritual death but also >>physical >>death.**** > > >Not to mention that in the garden, Adam and Eve were allowed to eat of >the tree of life before the fall.... They weren't. God said not to eat out of the tree of life or the tree of knowledge, otherwise, what was the point of kicking them out of the garden? > >>There is no feasable way, and God tends to keep things scientifically > >>fea= >>sible >>although just barely, that no death could occur. How could all kinds >>of >>animals roam around with out stepping on one amebea? Or crushing one >>dust= >> >>mite. We kill things everyday just by moving, things that are >>neccessary = >>for >>cycles on the Earth to work. = >> > >Are you saying you have to see it to believe it Thomas??? The Lord >of >Creation created and it was Good. Whether or not he created it like a >grain of wheat or not. Our bodies regenerate living cells daily to >replace the dying ones. Why then do we physically die? Because of >sin... of course..... Actually, we die because our body grows old and cannot generate cells at the same rate they are decaying. So, if you say there was no age, then there wsa no death. Depends on what you think. >>**** Yes God's rational nature is revealed in all of natural law, but > >>the= >>re is >>_absolutely nothing_ "scientifically feasable" about creation, >>miracles, = >>sin, >>redemption, resurreection, or God interacting with mankind. I'm >>afraid y= >>ou >>are revealing a fatal bias for a Christian: It must make sense >>scientific= >>ally. >> No! The author of nature is not bound by the nature He creates. He >>is >>TRANSCENDENT to His creation! I suggest you meditate long and hard on > >>the= >> >>first verse of the Sacred Scrolls because it's the hardest one to >>believe= >>=2E If >>you come to accept that one verse, the rest will follow.**** >> >>I believe that when man first sinned it brought spiritual death -- no > >>mor= >>e >>direct talks with God. God was now unreachable by man except through >>sacrifice. = >> >> >>**** This is is concert with scripture, but is not complete as per my > >>abo= >>ve >>comment.**** >> >>Which, of course, is why we can all reach Him. >> >>****We CAN NOT reach Him. HE CAN REACH US!**** > >All have fallen short of the Glory of God. However, in Christ we can >stand confidently before the Throne of God Almighty, who is Just and >full > of Mercy! Man can do nothing without faith to please, or reach God. >Works or deeds won't make it, but faith is shown in what we do.... >anyone confused yet? Because of God's mercy, we can now come before Him anytime we want or need. Thats what I meant by we can reach Him. >>Its debateable weather lions still killed lamps, but I don't think >the >>wo= >>rld >>was all peachy keen, no way to get hurt never never land. Besides, if > >>we = >>never >>died, wouldn't the world become over popualted very quickly? = >> > >Why didn't the animals on the ark eat each other? Maybe because the ark was not full of predeators. If you read some other parts of the debate I mentioned an alternate flood scenario in which that would be possible, cause Noah only took what he needed to survive. > >>**** The Sacred Scrolls record the Almighty Spirit saying, "Cursed is > >>the= >> land >>_because of you_." It can't be any clearer: The sin of Adam and Eve >>brou= >>ght >>God's curse on both us and the land, and by extension, the created >>univer= >>se. = >> >>All you have to do is look around you and consider the 2nd Law of >>Thermodynamics to realize that the universe is dying a death of heat >>loss= >> as >>useful energy is continually converted to less useful heat.**** >> >> >>And if you say nothing reproduced, then wouldn't we run out of all >>animal= >>s >>pretty quickly after they sinned if that brought killing? The >>predators w= >>ould >>soon kill all the prey, and then they would die out. = >> > >God commanded the animals to multiply after He created them. Ah, so then, if there was no death, wouldn't we have run out of land soon? Have you ever seen the rate small mammals reproduce at? After a year there would have been six or seven times as many small animals, and two or three times more larger animals, without death we'd run out of space pretty darn quick. >>****Scripture clearly declares that God invented and declared sexual >>reproduction to be the way of the living universe. There seems to be > >>a >>struggle of two opposed world-views batteling within you. Either >>Scriptu= >>re is >>correct in stating that God created the universe in a sinless, >>deathless >>state, or atheistic-mechanistic-naturalism is correct in stating that > >>mat= >>ter >>and stupid-energy is responsible for the universe as we observe it, >>and t= >>hat >>Darwinianism explains the existence of life. You cannot hold to both >>and = >>be >>rational. Except for America, (where scientists play to popularity) >>evolutionists around the world freely admit the TOTAL INCOMPATABILITY > >>of = >>these >>two opposed views.**** >> >>Besides that, killing for food is not a sin, or God would have >>demanded >>sacrifice when we did, so lions could therefore have killed lambs >well >>be= >>fore >>sin was intoduced into the world. Just my view on things, take it as >>you = >>will. > >God did, after the fall, require us to give a portion to Him in burnt >offerting (a sacrifice if you will) of everything He blessed us with, >no >matter how hard we worked for it. (How's that for a run-on >sentance....??) Yes, but He did not say, "if you kill a deer then you must bring me a dove and have its head twisted off. And if you kill a lamb..." like He did with everyother sin (Leviticus.) Greg >>Greg >> >>In the Overlord's Service, >>Eddy. >> > >There is my two cents worth..... > > >May the Lord of Truth enlighten us all to His true glory and >magnificence. > >Spy > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to ><dragonraid-unsubscribe@...> > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]