Hi Paul,

> Being a youth pastor and a calling to the unnsaved as well (as we all should
> be), I have found that jr. high youth  that are unsaved respond well. It's
> primarily a relationship thing. I do see your point if you are working with
> adults though.

Yes, there are a few points that have gotten muddled up in my thinking,
here, which your comments bring out:

1) separating one's 'duties' outright between the 'saved' and 'unsaved'
is probably a mistake.  Obviously some people are slanted one way or the
other, but everyone should ideally be involved in both
evangelism/discipleship and body-building on some level. My attitude
where that is concerned probably reflects more about myself than I ought
to be comfortable with. :)

2) I had forgotten that of course DR would be used primarily with kids,
because kids are the primary players of RPGs.  Just because my group of
8 stunted 12-going-on-30-year-olds plays doesn't mean everyone who plays
is of similar tooth.  You've reminded me that perhaps I'm too old to be
playing these games in the first place!

Ryan, you bring up some interesting issues, too:

> Okay I agree that Dragonraid is made for discipleship manly it works very
> well on the unsaved as well. But adding and taking away from a role
> playing
> game to teach values is not going to last long without the Lord working 
> with the person.

I won't argue that DR isn't the better tool for teaching.  But the
Lord's gotta be involved anyway, no matter if it's DR or dumbed-down
D&D.  I would bet that God can work through both, despite us.

> I know that D&D uses magic and other things that are
> offensive to God. So putting values into a gome like that wont last
> without
> God to back it up. It's kind of like trying to mix water and oil the two 
> just don't go together. Like the role playing games the world likes so
> much
> God wont have anything to do with them because He is not the center.

This to me is the crux of it, and is something I wonder about, so I
would appreciate input from whomever is still paying attention to my
ramblings.  What you're saying is that D&D and other RPGs can't stand
without the introduction of magic.  You might also add to that list
polytheistic priests, artifacts of power, undead beings, demons, and
character alignments.  My opinion is that it's debatable... It
definitely can survive without demons  -- my guys have respected my
preferences on that for the most part -- but it's true that priests and
mages are fairly entrenched character classes, and magic clearly plays a
large role in the overall setting.

So, to it, then: Is it a sin to play the role of a magician, if only in
your imagination, at a table, rolling dice?  Jesus lists those who
practice the magic arts as among those outside the gates of the city,
along with murderers, idolaters, the sexually immoral, and liars.  It is
clear throughout the Bible that God deems such practices as unrighteous.

But how similar is roleplaying such a person to actually being one? 
Could a parallel be drawn to, say, the man who looks at a woman
lustfully and by that act commits adultery?  It seems to me that the
threshold is at the point of desire-- it becomes sinful when the
roleplayer replaces his desire for God with a desire for magical power,
however briefly.  A form of idolatry.  Does that happen to roleplayers
more easily than to others in other circumstances?

Perhaps my experience with RPGs has been uncommonly good, but there has
never been a point at which any of us has wanted to BE their character. 
If one of us went that far, they'd be regarded askance: "You're STRANGE,
man."  Nor has any of us dipped into occultism or paganism. And yet in
Christian circles it is believed to be a common occurrence.  This is not
to say that the devil doesn't use today's RPGs in a huge way for just
that purpose, but my question is, in the hands of a right-thinking GM,
is a distilled D&D that still incorporates magic and polytheism a
necessarily dangerous thing?

I dunno, I tend to think not.  Santa uses magic to fly his sleigh,
Tinkerbell has her dust, Jeannie can blink and have anything she wants. 
And then on the other side we have Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead,
Peter walking on water after his Lord, Moses' staff turning into a
snake. I realize the difference in these is God.  But the effects, minus
the motive, is essentially the same.  Is it necessarily bad to pretend
to be anything but a saved Christian?

OTOH, would I roleplay an idolater?  A murderer?  A sexual deviant? 
Good questions.

Maybe that's enough to get a conversation started; if anyone has
thoughts on it I'd like to hear them.

> So..
> that's about it. I like that you show your friends your christianity be
> being
> there for them just becareful not to show them that what they are doing
> is correct in the eyes of God.

Well, if it's true that I'm being a bad example by playing these games
with them, and if they truly are dangerous, then I ought to stop, and
warn them of it too. But I'm not convinced.

> Also I don't mean this to put you down in
> any
> way. May the Overlord Bless.

No worries, Ryan... If anyone's walking that line, it's me.  I find
myself resisting the cultural aspects of the Christian church tooth and
nail, and sometimes it comes out in ways that seem hostile, so if that's
been the case for anyone, I apologize.

Bill