Kevin wrote:

> Yes, I've read the starlot/shadowstone text.  It's
> cute, but uneccessary in my opinion, at least not in
> the context of the dice.  I don't mind the idea of
> shadowstones and starlots, but I always did think that
> the idea of relating them to the dice was a bit
> strange.  I find it hard enough trying to get past the
> religious crowd rolling strange dice and all, but that
> little story makes it seem even more mystical.  

Do you mean the "pharisaical crowd"?  If so, it is understandable 
that they would have a problem with it.  DR, or any other game or 
system anything like it, is probably not for them.

> I
> don't focus on that at all and could easily live
> without it, especially if it confuses the use of the 8
> sided dice when I need it for something other than a
> dark creature.

I am curious, so I hope that you will indulge me here.  Since "need" 
and "want" are two different things, could you explain specifically 
why and for what you need to use the d8 for other than DCs and 
dragons?  Are you trying to be more realistic, fit a bell curve or 
something else?
 
> I'm sorry again if I seemed less than civil about this
> topic yesterday.  I was definitely stressed and should
> not have vented on all of you.  

No problem, everybody has a bad day here and there.

> I have lost my
> partner's interest on this game for some of the
> reasons we are discussing and he has stopped playing. 
> As he has stopped, I find the teens showing less
> interest in it and it frustrates me.  

Well, I would not force it on them.  You should probably try 
something else with them.  Are you using this as a ministry or just 
for fun?

Have you shown them Redemption CCG and the City of Bondage board game?

> I think the game
> has teaching value, but I think it is unbalanced in
> many ways that make it unsuitable for older players
> who find some of the teaching points elementary and
> childish.  My 8 year old loves it and finds it
> challenging as it is, but my teenagers get bored with
> it.  

Again, the original target group was younger teens, so it is not 
unreasonable for older ones or adults not to like certain aspects of 
the game.

> I find that making it more of a game and focusing
> on having fun with it a bit more draws them in and
> allows me to still teach them more subtly.  If nothing
> else, they learn that there are more ways to solve an
> issue than with the sword.  They learn to work as a
> team and call upon the Overlord and they learn how to
> argue against some temptations and role play
> witnessing situations.  Those are all great without
> all of the preachy situations that are just plain
> unrealistic such as talking turtles that crawl across
> their path with writing on their shells or a pegasus
> that suddenly appears and asks them each to name the
> highest characteristic of the character on their
> right.  I understand what you are trying to teach, but
> those things slow the game down and really turn off
> the older players.  

It doesn't take any effort just to skip the "silly" stuff, hence you 
avoid part of the problem.

> And it is all fine and good to say
> that we as AM's can make up what we want and change
> what we want, but some of us (in fact, probably most
> of us) are VERY busy and don't have time to put all
> the extra work into a system that is inadequate.  

So no one should be suprised that we can't get a lot of work done on 
the system.  All of us are adults with jobs and families.  Besides 
responsiblities at church and all those unexpected problems that crop 
up.

I do not want to blow my own horn, especially since I have nver been 
musically in inclined, but I have had to put aside some of my hobbies 
and actually lose sleep time when I work on DR related stuff.  My 
main, and about only hobby now, is DR.  I have to take and pack 
orders, assemble games, make copies, answer questions, etc. which all 
cuts into personal time that I could be typing or playtesting.  So, I 
juggle.  Sometimes the effort is no more than putting out fires, but 
that is better than not doing anything.

If any of you want to help out, feel free to go to my webpage and 
playtest all of the material there and send me comments.  So far, 
most of what I hear is crickets.

Which leads me to one of my pet peeves; I have asked for help or 
submissions plenty of times.  A few of you have helped with some 
rather detailed material (THANKS!) but for the most part I might as 
well bang my head against the wall.  Please do not submit ideas for 
me to work on, submit completed ideas for additions or revisions - 
entire DCs with stats and SEs, not just what the thing should look 
like. *** End of Complaint ***

> I
> feel that if I buy a game system or the adventures for
> that game system, that it should be complete and have
> all the maps and situations worked out for me.  That's
> what I pay for and that's what everyone pays for.  If
> you don't give it to them, they become frustrated and
> move on.  That's what I'm trying to get across.  

I totally agree with you.  And we are working on making the whole 
system better, but I don't think that we are going to make you happy 
anytime soon.  If someone is willing to pay me full time, I would 
gladly work on DR full time.  It probably won't happen though.

> There
> needs to be a supplemental book of advanced rules
> made, combining all of the fine rule alterations given
> on this list over the years and offered as part of the
> box set and suggested for players 16 and older or
> something.  

So who is going to do the work of putting this together?  If I do it, 
then I will get yelled at for not working on the Second Edition :-)

> In addition, some of the adventures need
> to have alternate activities or encounters for older
> players that are less basic and condescending, but
> more exciting and challenging.  Perhaps more
> complicated story building encounters that allow the
> players to enjoy the plot a bit more and possibly
> learn through more subtle means, like a good author
> will do in a novel.  C.S. Lewis comes to mind, of
> course, for that is exactly what he did with Narnia.  

We discussed having Mature Tracks in the adventures.  This will 
probably be added after the DR2ED is out.
 
As for adventure revisions, I am slowly working on that as well.  I 
am in the LRT and am taking notes in RSS as well.

> Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say here?

I think that you are being pretty clear.
 
> I'm not trying to ruin the mission of Dragonraid; only
> bring it into reality.  I just don't see the average
> sunday school teacher, or christian education leader
> finding a fantasy RPG to be a useful tool and giving
> it any serious consideration.  And those who would
> take interest in it, namely the christian gamer, find
> it to be so lacking that they toss it aside in many
> cases as I did 15 years ago.  By having a basic and an
> advanced approach, you may be able to give it a
> multi-purposed usefulness and satisfy both possible
> users.

May I ask how old you are, Kevin?

Being a gamer since '80, I am 37 now.  And when I saw DR in '91, I 
was intrigued with the possiblities.  I laughed at the dumb stuff, 
but never put it aside, an I had reason to, I paid $95 for the game, 
notebook, and the adventures, no extras like dice and extra books.

I hope that we (not just you and me) can all be adult enough to 
consider that our view of things isn't necessarily entirely correct.  
For instance, the RPG market is not growing, according to sources 
like Steve Jackson Games, RPGnet, and my local gamestore owner.  Card 
and computer games have taken a big bite out of it since too many are 
too lazy to make the efforts that RPGs demand.  And is there a "huge" 
market out there for a quality Christian RPG?  I don't know, I have 
never seen any hard numbers.

What we do know is that there is always a need for some kind of fun 
way for kids to learn scriptural principles.  DR does not fit 
everybody, so I am not delusional enough to think that it will.  Is 
there a future for DR as discipleship material?  I think so, but then 
I am contacted by youth leaders and the like almost on a regular 
basis.  By the way, a youth pastor in Brasil is asking permission to 
translate DR into Portuguese to use with his groups.  Add that to the 
missionary in the Ukraine who was translating it into Russian.

Is DR a good RPG?  No.  Though it is slowly getting better.

Anyway, we all have different views, but I hope that we can work 
together to further the system.

Joe