Wow! Nothing like getting it from both ends! Poor Joe. I see now what a delicate balance you are trying to weave to make both sides happy. I do agree with one major point that has been brought up by a couple of people lately though. The tons of mathematical equations do make the character generation system burdensome. I know. I know. This coming from the guy who was crying for more complicating rule! But making up a character isn't an area where people want complication. Another area that turns people off right off the back. I find it especially annoying that every character has to calculate every weapon formula just to see which ones he would be best at so that he can choose the ones that are most useful. I like your idea of weapon group proficiencies. But, I would suggest not even making physical skills such as that connect in any way with character abilities. Why not allow characters to pick weapon proficiencies and build up on them with maturity units directly or something like that? This would also make character building a bit more exciting and pointed. Which, by the way, is another major drawback of the system in my opinion. It is hard to get excited about building up your character when you can only build up skills and special abilities indirectly through recalculating formulas that may or may not be affected by a character ability going up one point. Just something else to consider, though I see here that some might consider that yet another unecessary complication. Kevin --- "Rodney E. Barnes" <thegamemaster1@...> wrote: > For me, time is a valuble commodity of which the > good Lord only blesses us > with so much of to use for His glory in a given day. > > If I can't pick up a new RPG book and crank out a > character in 45 minutes, > it's too complex a system for me to waste my time > on. > > DR took me and my wife 4 hours to read enough to > crank out our first > character. From book to PC, that's way too long a > time. And I have a > Masters degree (not braging, just comparing), and if > it took me 4 hours to > go cold from book to finished PC, I would hate to > see how long it would take > your average Jr. Higher (the target audience for DR) > to go cold from book to > finished PC. > > Granted, we did not have anyone assisting us, no > experienced DR players > around... we were on our honeymoon and I thought DR > would be a good game for > both of us to play together in our new family, but > that makes my point. The > system should have a next to zero learning curve to > be effective, expessily > in a church curiculm setting, and now days with our > low academic standards > in schools and high immoraity. You would think that > you would want DR to be > an effective tool to TODAYS innercity youth, not the > subburban youth of 15 > years ago. You don't want DR to just be a tool to > teach only white middle > class subburban boys. It should also be a tool that > can reach effectivly > innercity youth. > > And reading through the math formulas (granted, they > are simple and can be > done in your head for the most part if your an > educated white male... but > not if your an innercity youth, but that's another > issue), I don't see any > ryme or reason to them. And the books do not give > any explination as to why > the formulas are the way they are. > > Thus the reason why I say that they are arbitrary. > There is no research > documentation, let alone a simple blerp as to why or > how they came up with > what they came up with. Gamers are an inquisative > lot, and arbitrary math > in a game system is one of the things that bugs most > of us. I could start > making up skills to ad to the game and use whatever > formulas that pop into > my head or whatever "feels" right. As Christians, > we should seek objective > standards not what "feels" right. The AM guide > should have included > rational for the formulas and guidelines for > creation of new skills and how > to calculate formuals for them and why... if they > used an objective standard > at all. > > Gaming design has come a LONG way since 1st Edition > DR came out. And I was > hopeing that a lot of the mechanics of DR 1st > Edition would be scrapped for > something more elagant and streemlined. Something > that the teacher in the > sunday school setting, for example, would not have > to spend any time > teaching the game system, but could focus on runing > the Raid and teaching > the resulting practical lessons from it. Slugging > through rules and > teaching the game system is a waste of the sunday > school teachers time. As > a Pastor, I would not recommend DR as part of a > sunday school curriculam in > it's current form because of it's complexities and > archaic game mechanics > (translation; too much time just for teaching of the > game is required). I > would have a seperate DR time and an AM whos only > ministry invovlement with > the chruch (unless staff) was being the AM. As the > time demands are too > high. > > Thus I put high hopes that the AFC team would scrap > about 90% of DR's > mechanics and move to something more modern, > streemlined, and time > conscious, without sacrificing the core WordRune > concepts. As I like the > ideas and concepts behind DR and would love to > incorporate them into church > programing. But the vast amount of time needed at > present is not cost > effective. Esspecially with todays innercity youth. > > Rod > CGG Prez > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sbrown" <sbrown@...> > To: "Rodney E. Barnes" <thegamemaster1@...> > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:52 PM > Subject: RE: [DragonRaid] Complexity of DR > > > > Hello. > > I would have to disagree with you about the > math-derived skills: > it is > > one of the > > best systems I've seen. It's not too hard if you > know how to arithmetic, > and > > it is more > > realistic then some other systems I've seen or > played, like Star Wars or > D&D. > > The only > > thing it costs is time, which I don't mind > spending on my character. > > > > >===== Original Message From "Rodney E. Barnes" > <thegamemaster1@...> > > ===== > > >I would have to respectfully diagree with you on > DR being "simple" and > less > > >"complex" then GURPS or (A)D&D. DR 1st Edition, > with it's many > attributes > > >and many math driven attribute durived skills, is > the third most complex > > >character creation mechanic I've seen > (Role-Master taking top billing, > with > > >RIFTS in close persuite). > > > > > >I am hopefull that the 2nd Edition will boil down > the attributes to 3 or > 4 > > >(faith, hope, love, and temple (body), or > somthing similar), and have the > > >skills and armor based on them without all the > complex and arbitrary > math > > >formulas. A simple stright forward approch to > attributes and skills for > > >character creation would make for a faster > learning curve and would make > a > > >lot more SENSE then all the arbitrary math > formulas. > > > > > >Love would govern all Spiritual Gifts and > WordRune levels. Faith would > > >goven all Armor of God and be your Spiritual > fatigue points. And Hope > would > > >govern all your non-physical skills and mental > fatigue points. Temple > would > > >govern all your physical skills and it would also > be your physical hit > > >points. > > > > > >The Armor of God could be used similar to "saving > throws" in that other > > >game. > > > > > >Fruit's of the Spirit could be used as different > types of experience that > > >could be spent on different related skills. For > example; Self-Control > > >experience would be nessesary to buy levels in > "Resist Con" skill. And > > >Fruits of the Flesh are negatives the subtract > experience from the > opposeing > > >Fruit of the Spirit. For example; Lust of the > Flesh would subtract from > > >Self Control. Love Experience would be used to > raise your Love > attribute, > > >and Faith Experience would be used to raise your > Faith attribue. > > > > > >And Spiritual Gifts could be used like > "Advantages" === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/