jonathan wrote: > > > > Containers and dynamic arrays are highly valuable additions. I find > > also exciting to see the language still evolving. > > ok, let me repeat [read my lips] these things are great. i am not > complaining. i am asking about energy and priorities. staz'n'andy did things > like these 'cos folks howled for them. i ask did we howl for the right > things? and how best to howl in future. The aforementioned additions are probably less of a pain than it may seem, well, at least they are easier to include in FB^3 than it would have been with FBII. Now, to allow a greater integration of FB^3 to the Mac OS, it is likely that a new Runtime must be designed. Currently two runtimes are candidates for the task : the Appearance Runtime and the OOP Runtime, and they are not yet ready for prime time, but very close to completion, I think. > > i have said on this list and in conversations with yourself the fine > achievement that FB is. i also understand that resources are a playoff, if > s'n'a work on this, they can't simultaneously work on that. so, debate. in > order to see where folks see priorities for the future. as this is FB debate > i posted here, not in a beta list as it is not a request for features, nor > in an X-FB list as it is not a discussion about old rich [washed out] hippy > musiciens and the abuse of chemical substances. > > [snip] > > > Maybe your requests are relevant, > > They are not requests. I *personally* would like to see them. I have no wish > to impose my vision of things on all, so i didn't bombard mail to staz. i > hope that through discussions here staz will get a better idea [using a > coeficient for certains 'loudness' values] of what is the perceived wants > and needs around FB. > OK, I misused the word request, so take it as a figure of speech. > > but you must keep in mind that a > > lot of works are undertaken in many directions (Appearance, OOP, > > Carbon, Game engine, new PG and probably new Editor) that require a > > major rewrite while the features you mentioned can currently be > > implemented by good coders in their apps. > > I remarked on this in my post. perhaps i didn't say it enough. it is not an > easy task, timewise and resourcewise to create a new runtime. create an FB^3 > one completely compatible down to idiosyncracities with FBII is/was hell for > them. but how long should this go on? > I have the feeling that the FBII compatibility is achieved, so I believe that your expectations must point now towards the new runtimes that are coming. > how many years has andy been programming FB? in that time he has certainly > learnt a lot of stuff, but he's stuck in the conceptual framework that ZB > initially was. perhaps if he started today he would do things differently... > so the idea of historical compatibility will always be played off against > new possibilities [not features, which is offering more for the same price, > but possibilities, which is expanding the languagae/framework/concepts to > allow future growth, follow mac os evolution, look at other levels of > abstraction]. one day, surely, the time will come when the conceptual shell > of FB will have served its purpose and then will s'n'a be still stuggling to > stay within that framework? > > > You seem to imply that there is a waste of time, as to me, today I > > think that the waste of time, if any, was due to the FBII > > compatibility issue. I perfectly understand why it is like this, but > > frankly if FB^3 is the successor of FBII it is not its direct > > descendant, I mean it is not totally fair to take into account the > > past ten years when considering FB^3. Personally, I am constantly > > amazed by the amount of work done between two releases and you must > > know that a great part of it is not even visible for the final user > > who also takes his/her time to chew up the new features introduced. > > So, like someone has said, give time to time. > > no, it is not a waste of time; i did not say that, i did not want to imply > it. time is a resource that s'n'a must decide how to use to the best > advantage of the FB project. it's a permanent playoff, if they do one thing, > they probably won't have the time to do another. and whereas i can find the > occasional bug [or mostly, non-conformities between docs and apps], or make > the occasional construcive suggestion on the beta-list, i am not able to > write a runtime. that is beyond my small gnome-shaped neurones. i also > believe that were i able to do so, it would be a poor beast as i don't have > the experience and vision that andy does in the matter. > > please do not mistake debate - frank, honest, questionning and debate - with > negative criticism. > I didn't see your questionings as negative criticism, but I have the feeling it put a heavy burden on Staz shoulders as if he were not aware of all the things that remain to do and I just think that what is needed is time. OK, if you speak of wishes, I'm waiting for a new PG Appearance Runtime compliant, I'm not holding my breath though. > [snip] > > > Grouchy or not, you are certainly a bit impatient, normally, this is > > where third parties should have a role to play filling the gap (cf. > > FutureFrames, dataShell, MIDWorld). > > i said that some parts can be filled with third parties. there should be a > healthy third-party environment around FB. but integrating core apple > technologies into FB, in a coherent transparent manner, is not the realm of > third-party apps. > Well, I tend to agree with you, but this point can be discussed, it is not like the technolgies you have mentioned were not already accessible from FB. > > PPS. the paris FBers are, after the visits of Chris Henkel and Sylvain, > meeting jay reeve tonite! any other listers should feel free to come along > too! alain, where is the photo gammery that we were supposed to do of these > meetings? and did sylvain send the photos? > No. See you later. -- Cheers Alain ----------------------------------------------------- FB^3 in Europe: http://euro.futurebasic.com/ FB II Pouch: http://www.pixmix.com/FB/outils.html -----------------------------------------------------