J & M, So you think that the laws of a nation which may be able to control external behavior are more powerful than that with can control the heart and mind? That's what I think Plato was saying. He wasn't advocating lawlessness. I understand him to be saying that music can change the heart and laws can only compel compliance externally. Music could very well have been used in Iraq. It was a few years ago in Panama. Are you old enough to remember that? I am, and apparently it was quite effective there. So Shu Ching might have a valid point as well. It's not an either or when it comes to laws and music. Are you saying music has no power over people? Are you saying the type music one hears doesn't affect them at all? The only people in the world that seem to believe this is evangelicals or neo-evangelicals and maybe some post modern which are neo-evangelicals in a new wrap. The answer to your question, "it depends on the lyrics, doesn't it" is absolutely not. Music itself, without any lyrics, can have a dramatic effect on the body and mind. Have you ever watched a scary movie on TV? You can close your eyes and just listen and know something dramatic is about to happen because of the ______________ playing. Now, on what basis do you challenge these "thinkers" of the past? I'm not saying they are right, I'm asking if they are. If someone doesn't think so, I'd like to know why they don't agree with them and on what basis they make their stand. David -----Original Message----- From: J & M [mailto:jim.melissa@...] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:54 AM To: pastorsforum@... Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] There's more by "no nothing" music analyzers They were wrong. 1. God never warned Israel about the music of the pagan nations around them, but He certainly warned them about their other sinful practices. 2. The music (LYRICS) of an artist reflects their heart, belief, mind, etc. These lyrics can have a negative or positive effect on culture, depending on their content. That is why God tells us to guard our hearts, renew our minds, etc. 3. I DO care who writes the laws of a nation. Eminem may promote violence, but the law restrains it. If Plato is right, we waste our time voting or being involved in politics as a Christian. We should be reaching the masses through music. Oh wait, I think some Christian Contemporary artists are doing that. "Plato- I care not who writes the laws, if you let me write the music of a nation. " 4. If Shu Ching is right, this could be a great prison reform program. Maybe drunk drivers could have their manners and customs altered with a mandatory CD listening sentence. Even Iraq could be calmed down with a non-stop barrage of John Peterson Cantatas. "Shu Ching- philosopher 6th century BC- For changing people's manners and altering their customs, there is nothing better than music. (Talk like that will get you into an argument real quick with the ecumenical crowd these days)" 5. "Music can excite and incite" It can thrill us, scare us, lift us, and much more. But to what or where? That depends on the lyrics, doesn't it? "Famous (?) composer Dimitri Tiokem- The fact that music can both excite and incite has been known from time immemorial. (You can tell you are not modern or post modern so anything you have to say is just old irrelevant)" > Were these guys right or wrong? > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." > > --- > [This e-mail scanned for viruses and spam by Nmax - "Your MAXimum > Connection!"] > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005 --- [This e-mail scanned for viruses and spam by Nmax - "Your MAXimum Connection!"] -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity."