David, The quote I made of Spurgeon had to do with the worldly nature of some music. Spurgeon cited the organ as worldly. So, I just asked you if you had an organ in your church, if so, Spurgeon would call you worldly. Derick ------------------------------------ Wallers Baptist Church Pastor derick@... PO Box 95 Partlow VA 22534 tel: 540-582-5703 mobile: 540-894-1772 www.thedickensfamily.org ------------------------------------ > -----Original Message----- > From: Pastor David Warner [mailto:dwarner@...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:09 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > What's that go to do with the price of tea? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 4:15 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > David, > > So, do you have an organ in your church? > > Derick > > ------------------------------------ > Wallers Baptist Church > Pastor > derick@... > PO Box 95 > Partlow VA 22534 > tel: 540-582-5703 > mobile: 540-894-1772 > www.thedickensfamily.org > ------------------------------------ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pastor David Warner [mailto:dwarner@...] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:16 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > > > Amen!! > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:59 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > Here is a quote from the Metropolitan Tabernacle in their > article on > > CCM which supports that CHS would never want an organ in the > > sanctuary. > > > > "C H Spurgeon would never have an organ at the Metropolitan > Tabernacle > > in his day, because he saw how so many of the larger churches had > > become carried away by the sound of their magnificent > instruments, and > > the expert capabilities of their organists. They were tickling the > > ears of the people (as Spurgeon put it) with beautiful > musical items > > other than hymns. He was concerned that people would go to > church to > > be entertained rather than to worship, but even more seriously, > > he saw how the skill and beauty of the music was itself > > likely to be regarded as an act of worship, and an offering > > to God. Today the Tabernacle uses an organ, but we endeavour > > to keep its deployment within bounds, so that it provides an > > accompaniment only, and does not become a medium of worship. > > We would never say, for example, that the organ 'enriches' > > worship. It disciplines the singing, and teaches and > > maintains the tune, but we know very well that in spiritual > > terms it can contribute nothing." > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Wallers Baptist Church > > Pastor > > derick@... > > PO Box 95 > > Partlow VA 22534 > > tel: 540-582-5703 > > mobile: 540-894-1772 > > www.thedickensfamily.org > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:50 PM > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > You call something a lie, but I contend you are wrong. > The entire > > > regulative principles of a few hundred years ago was being > > questioned > > > and thought through. Some people believed that a > > non-psalter was okay > > > and were condemned. Soli Deo Gloria has a great book > they produced > > > about the Worship of the English Puritans. Great little > > book that was > > > based upon the author's dissertation into primary source > documents. > > > This book has been peer reviewed and is considered a > modern classic. > > > I highly recommend it. Therefore, your premise below is wrong... > > > There is worship today that the Puritans would have strongly > > > condemned. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > Wallers Baptist Church > > > Pastor > > > derick@... > > > PO Box 95 > > > Partlow VA 22534 > > > tel: 540-582-5703 > > > mobile: 540-894-1772 > > > www.thedickensfamily.org > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Pastor David Warner [mailto:dwarner@...] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:48 AM > > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > > > > > > > Dale, > > > > The old lie that "we are using music in the church > today that was > > > > condemned 200 years ago and we have suffered no harm, > > therefore, no > > > > harm can come from any type of music we bring into the > > church today" > > > > has been repeated so often that many sincere evangelicals > > and even > > > > fundamentalists have bought in to it. Regardless of how > > many times > > > > it is repeated; regardless of how some well known personalities > > > > repeat it; regardless of how many "scholarly ministers > of music" > > > > repeat it; regardless of how many times it appears in book, the > > > > purpose driving acceptance and promotion of this is not > holiness > > > > of hellishness. It's fleshly. It appeals to the flesh, the > > > > carnal minds and the babes in Christ. The ungodly like > it because > > > > it makes them feel good to have the same thing they have been > > > > feeding on. Instead of fine dining, too many are serving slop. > > > > But Dale, the subject was changed from my original > posts. I was > > > > asking some very basic questions concerning music to > see if there > > > > was validity in what some of these guy, both ancient > and modern, > > > > believed about music. I wasn't taking a position and didn't do > > > > that until yesterday I believe in response to an attack > on me for > > > > something I hadn't said. It's not that I don't have a > position. > > > > I was wanting to see if there was any reason, logic, or most > > > > importantly, Scripture, to say my position needed some > tweaking. > > > > None has been forthcoming to date. I've had snide > remarks, I've > > > > had defense of CCM, I've had lots of blah, blah, blah, but no > > > > answer to my question. No one has dealt with the statements > > > > these guys I quoted made. One in particular simply took a > > > > position of assuming and brought into the posts many > > > > different questions. In fact, he rejected my question (I > > > > suspect because he didn't want to answer it) and came up with > > > > a different question. What you have said about music being as > > > > you stated in different time periods may have been true in > > > > some churches. You're not saying it was always that way in > > > > every church, are you? If I ask a question, please tell me > > > > how I am to prove Biblically the asking of the question. If > > > > I give an answer, then it ought to be a Biblical answer, but > > > > a question? Dale, you may say that issues like this can't be > > > > proven Biblically to your satisfaction but you cannot say > > > > they cannot be proven Biblically. They can, they have, and > > > > they will continue to be proven Biblically for many who have > > > > eyes to see and ears to hear. While many preachers today > > > > seem to be confused as to what worldliness is, unsaved, > > > > ungodly, worldly people seem to know very well what it is. > > > > How is it that they are able to do that. I suspect it is > > > > because they do not care and therefore don't have any need to > > > > deny what is apparent to the honest mind. Your "well > > > > Spurgeon smoked a pipe" is a smoke screen. If we are going to > > > > deal with music, let's stick with music. This is what those > > > > do who attack the KJV and those who believe it is God's > > > > preserved word for the English speaking world. They want to > > > > talk about King James and his life and the paper that was > > > > used and whether the ink the translators used was pure or > > > > that it came from the same batch of ink that was also used to > > > > write some heresy and therefore the KJV is tainted. I say, > > > > stick with the manuscripts and here, stick with the music. > > > > Dale, go back and re-read my post. The 3.2 beer was an > > > > ILLUSTRATION and not a accusation or suggestion that some > > > > actually did that. The point was, you don't give a little of > > > > the bad in order to "reach" those who are use worse. Just > > > > read my posts to know what I am saying. You can't read what > > > > others make up about what I posted and then ask me to defend > > > > what they said I said. BTW, there were a couple of posts, one > > > > from Fidel and one from Jeff, that seemed to get exactly what > > > > I was saying. In fact, they seemed to be blessed by what > > > > Spurgeon wrote over 100 years ago. I know I was blessed and > > > > challenged when I read it. It is was true then, unless > > > > things have gotten so much better since then, it must be true > > > > now and even more appropriate. Dale, I do appreciate your > > > > sincere interest in knowing the truth and what is right and > > > > wrong. May God guide each of us in our search for His > > > > perfect will and may all we do, and say, and even think bring > > > > glory and honor unto Him. > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dale Gooding [mailto:prosperityfbc@...] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:36 AM > > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > > > > > > > DW, > > > > As much as I agree with the potential harm some music can > > do in the > > > > church, you haven't proved your point you have only used > > conjecture. > > > > Yes, Spurgeon was right but you may very well listen to > > some music > > > > today that he condemned then. If you go back as far as > > Plato I am > > > > more confident that you do. The music played in churches > > today was > > > > condemned 200 years ago. There was also a time when > > anything other > > > > than the Psalms was considered worldly. Then there was > a period > > > > when only men could sing. Then there was a time when only the > > > > chosen could sing. I am not saying you are right or > wrong. I only > > > > ask that you prove your point Biblically. Issues like > this can't > > > > be proven by broad statements like "worldliness". Much > of what we > > > > do today would be considered worldly by Spurgeon. I am > confident > > > > you wouldn't smoke a pipe but I believe it was Spurgeon who did > > > > and only stopped because he saw a billboard promoting > the type of > > > > tobacco he smoked and he stopped because he refused to > be known by > > > > anything other than the gospel that he preached. Many > would insist > > > > that music is an "extra-biblical" issue. I am not sure > that it is > > > > but please prove your point don't just postulate about it. > > > > You seem to take things farther than anyone on the forum > > > > would by suggesting they would use such things as 3.2 beer. > > > > That infers that David P. would do such a thing and he has > > > > not said such. Please brother, just prove your point with the > > > > Bible using Biblical references concerning music not "the > > > > broad way" or "worldliness" which could apply to almost > > > > anything anyone wanted to use it for to prove their point. > > > > Again, I am not saying you are wrong just prove the point! > > > > > > > > DG > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Pastor David Warner [mailto:dwarner@...] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:13 AM > > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > > > > > > > But Ray, the problem is that the message has changed. It's not > > > > about associating with sinners. Every gospel preacher > worth his > > > > salt does that. > > > > It's about becoming like them in order to win them. Jesus > > > never did > > > > that. > > > > Your analogy of the Pharisees' accusation against Jesus > > was not what > > > > the post was all about. The was about becoming like the world. > > > > Jesus never became like the world to reach the sinner. He > > came into > > > > the world to save sinners from the world. He said, if > > any man love > > > > the world the love of the Father is not in him. You > > don't give 3.2% > > > > beer to a alcoholic in order to win him to Christ. You > > give him the > > > > gospel. You don't say, "let's go have a few drinks > while I tell > > > > you about Jesus. You tell him to turn to God from idols > and start > > > > serving the living the Lord. So, to answer your > question, be like > > > > Jesus. He came into the world to save sinners. He didn't tell > > > > them to change their words but keep their old life-style. He > > > > said, "Ye must be born again." The Bible say a saved > person is a > > > > new creature in Christ Jesus. Surely every gospel would > say that a > > > > new creature ought to act like it. David > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ray Hurst [mailto:rhurst@...] > > > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:58 PM > > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Even quotes from ______________ > > > > > > > > > > > > This sounds like something the Pharisees accused Jesus > > about. Jesus > > > > spent time with sinners and how could He do that, it's not > > > > scriptural. > > > > > > > > We could not reach God, so Jesus came to us. > > > > The sinners were not allowed near the Pharisee's & > Sadducee's, so > > > > Jesus went to them. Jesus touched the leper, sick and the > > outcast, > > > > ALL against the righteous laws of the day. > > > > > > > > Hmnn who should I be like, traditionalist or Jesus? > > > > > > > > We can change the method but not the message. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pastor David Warner wrote: > > > > > > > > >This is the suggestion of the present hour: if the > > > > >world will not come to Jesus...shall not the church go > > down to the > > > > >world? Instead of bidding men to be converted, to > come out from > > > > >among sinners and be separate from them, let us join with the > > > > >ungodly world, enter into union with it, and so > pervade it with > > > > >our influence by allowing it to influence us. Let us have a > > > > >Christian world... > > > > > > > > > >Certain ministers...are treacherously betraying our > > > > >holy religion under pretense of adapting it to this > > present age. > > > > >The new plan is to assimilate the church into the world. By > > > > >semi-dramatic performance they make houses of prayer to > > approximate > > > > >theater; they turn their services into musical > > displays...In fact, > > > > >they exchange the temple for the theater, and turn the > > > > ministers of God > > > > > > > > >into actors, whose business it is to amuse men... This, > > > then, is the > > > > >proposal. In order to win the world, the Lord Jesus > > must conform > > > > >Himself, His people, and His Word to the world. I will not > > > > dwell on so > > > > >loathsome a proposal. > > > > > > > > > >My dear hearers, how much I long to see you saved! > > > > >But I would not belie my Lord, even to win your souls, if they > > > > >could be so won. The true servant of God is not > responsible for > > > > >success or non-success. Results are in God's hands. > > > > >*************************** > > > > > > > > > >Ready for this- > > > > > > > > > >This was preached in 1888 > > > > > > > > > >The title was No Compromise by none other than- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Charles H. Spurgeon > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > > >pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > > >"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > > > liberty; and in > > > > >all > > > > things, charity." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and > > > > in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and > > > > in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and > > > > in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and > > > > in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and in > > > all things, charity." > > > > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > liberty; and in > > all things, charity." > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > liberty; and in > > all things, charity." > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > liberty; and in all things, charity." > >