It must be that 'frozen chosen' stereotype. Peace, Steve DAVID POWELL wrote: > Steve, whoever told me, years ago, that Presbyterians don't have a sense > of humor,,,,,lied! > > ROTFLOL > > God Bless > > dp > > > > > Pastor David > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua! > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!) > >From: "Steven G. Rockhill" <revrock@...> > >Reply-To: pastorsforum@... > >To: pastorsforum@... > >Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Was St. Patty a Baptist???? > >Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:27:34 -0500 > > > >I must admit as I was reading this I was waiting for: > > > >Number Nine: Patrick used the King James Bible :-) (smiley face) > > > >Interesting article. Though there is a lot of 'presumption' and > >'assumption' where the historical record is silent. e.g. Just > >because you go down to a 'spring' to be baptized does not mean you > >were immersed. Besides a 'spring' is not exactly a river or lake. > >But we have been there and done that (immersion and baptist history > >both) and even though it is probably time to go there again > >(according to the cycling of usual topics) I am not up to it this go > >round. > > > > I am curious though that all the historians quoted are 'baptist' > >historians. If it was such a historical fact why don't other > >historians pick up on it. Anyway as far as I am concerned, if you > >want St. Patrick you can have him - he's a little too green for me. > >:-) (smiley face) > > > >Peace, > >steve > > > >Pastor David Warner wrote: > >>Ahhh, I didn't want to do this but it looks as though we have some > >>doubting Thomases out there. Sooooo, > >> > >> > >> St. Patrick A Baptist! > >> > >> > >> > >>By Dr. L. K. Landis > >> > >> > >> > >>For centuries Roman Catholicism has laid claim to the supposition > >>that Patrick of Ireland was a Roman priest. However, over 100 > >>hundred years ago W. A. Jarrel, much respected author and church > >>historian, put into print what had been known by Baptists since the > >>very beginning, that Patrick was not a Catholic priest, but rather > >>a Baptist missionary. It is because of this much neglected fact > >>that we put into print this material so that this present > >>generation may know the truth and great heritage of this early > >>Baptist missionary to Ireland. So zealous were these historians of > >>the 1800's and so spirited was their conviction to this that one > >>wrote, "Rome's most audacious theft was when she seized bodily the > >>Apostle Peter and made him the putative head and founder of her > >>system; but next to that brazen act stands her effrontery when she > >>'annexed' the great missionary preacher of Ireland and enrolled him > >>among her saints" (A Short History of the Baptists [1907], Henry C. > >>Vedder, pg. 71-72). > >> > >> > >> > >>Most church historians agree that Patrick, originally named Succat > >>(or Succathus) Patricus, was born sometime between the years 360 AD > >>and 387 AD, probably near what is now Dumbarton, Scotland. It is > >>also generally accepted by those knowledgeable of the subject that > >>he lived to a well advanced age, some placing him at over 100 years > >>old at the time of his death. > >> > >> > >> > >>Cathcart, the dean among Baptist apologists, suggests that Patrick > >>is not his name, but rather a title of honor meaning noble and > >>illustrious and was bestowed upon him by his grateful admirers (The > >>Baptist Encyclopedia [1881], by William Cathcart, pg. 886). His > >>writings reveal that his father, Calpurnius, was a deacon in a > >>Baptist church (we know that there were Baptist churches on the > >>British Isle as far back as A.D. 63, History of the Welch Baptists > >>[1770], by J. Davis, Page 14), having apparently been converted to > >>Christ while on a business trip to Rome as he also served as a > >>Roman civil officer. In spite of being reared in a godly home and > >>taught the ways of the Scriptures, Cathcart also states that the > >>young Patrick was "...wild and wicked until his sixteenth year..." > >>when, while working on his father's farm, he and several others > >>were seized and carried away captive by a band of pirates to > >>Ireland, where he was sold into slavery to a petty Irish clan > >>chieftain. For over five years he suffered the atrocities of > >>slavery. Later, however, he would recount that it was during this > >>most dark period of his life that he, himself, was converted to > >>Christ remembering the Christian training he had received from his > >>godly father while but a child. Regarding this, W. A. Jarrel wrote > >>over one hundred years ago, "...the truth which saved him when a > >>youthful slave in pagan Ireland was taught him in the godly home > >>of...his father" (Baptist Church Perpetuity or History [1894], W. A > >>Jarrel, pg. 472). > >> > >> > >> > >>Historians also record that "...upon his twenty-first year, he > >>escaped the chains of servitude..." and returned to his father's > >>home in Scotland, only to find that he had died and his land > >>acquired by others. It was during this time that Patrick, "being a > >>stronger Christian, the Lord soon called him back to Ireland as the > >>missionary for that blinded country" (Ibid.). Jarrel further > >>suggests that the more one studies the life, ministry and writings > >>of this Irish "apostle", "...the more he stands out as a Baptist." > >>He, Jarrel, is perhaps among the greatest authorities on the > >>subject of Saint Patrick, as one full chapter of his makes several > >>suggestions as to why Patrick could not have been a Roman Catholic > >>priest: > >> > >> > >> > >>1. "At the time of Saint Patrick the Romish church was only en > >>embryo". > >> > >> > >> > >>2. "In St. Patrick's time the authority of the bishop of Rome was > >>not generally recognized." > >> > >> > >> > >>3. "There is no history to sustain the Romish claim that Patrick > >>was sent to Ireland by Pope Celistine." Not one of the early > >>biographers of his life mentions any ties to Rome. Even in all the > >>writings of Saint Patrick himself there is never any mention of > >>connection with Rome. > >> > >>Neander, the church historian, wrote, "If Patrick came to Ireland > >>as a deputy from Rome, it might naturally be expected that in the > >>Irish church a certain sense of dependence would always have been > >>preserved towards the mother church. But we find, on the contrary, > >>in the Irish church a spirit of church freedom, similar to that in > >>Britain, which struggled against the yoke of Roman ordinances. We > >>find subsequently among the Irish a much greater agreement with the > >>ancient British than with Roman ecclesiastical usages. This goes to > >>prove that the origin of the church was independent of Rome, and > >>must be traced solely to the people of Britain... Again, no > >>indication of his connection with the Romish church is to be found > >>in his confession; rather everything seems to favor the supposition > >>that he was ordained bishop in Britain itself" (Neander's History > >>of the Christian Church, Volume 2, page 123). > >> > >> > >> > >>Another Irish scholar says, "...Leo II, was bishop of Rome from 440 > >>to 461 A.D. and upwards of one hundred and forty of his letters to > >>correspondents in all parts of Christendom still remain and yet he > >>never mentions Patrick or his work, or in any way intimates that he > >>knew of the great work being done there." > >> > >> > >> > >>Professor George T. Stokes, still yet another prominent scholar, > >>declares that prior to the synod of Rathbresail in A.D. 1112, the > >>rule of each Irish church was independent, autonomous, and > >>"...dioceses and diocesan episcopacy had no existence at all." > >> > >> > >> > >>Considering these indisputable and undeniable facts, it is > >>impossible for Patrick to have been the patron Roman Catholic saint > >>of Ireland. The material is just not there to substantiate any such > >>claim. Baptist pastor, author and historian Gillham says that in > >>the middle of the nineteenth century, Baptists universally accepted > >>the fact that Patrick of Ireland was of apostolic tradition and > >>therefore a Baptist. It was also commonly accepted that the baptism > >>of the heirs to his ministry were also investigated and found to be > >>New Testament in origin. It was only during these last 150 years > >>that Baptists have been willing to relinquish Patrick to the hands > >>of the papacy. > >> > >> > >> > >>However, the insurmountable evidence of his position among the > >>Baptists of antiquity comes from the writings of this great man > >>himself. While several letters written by Patrick and sent to > >>Christians converted to Christ under his ministry still exist, most > >>of what we know of his beliefs are taken from two documents that he > >>wrote: St. Patrick's Confession, or Epistle to the Irish; and an > >>"Epistle to Coroticus." In these two writings that still survive, > >>it becomes very apparent that this great preacher was not of Roman > >>Catholic persuasion. He was a Baptist through and through, holding > >>recognized Baptist positions on all the cardinal doctrines. > >>Consider these eight (8) conclusive reasons why Saint Patrick was a > >>Baptist! > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number One: St. Patrick Baptized Only Professed Believers > >> > >> > >> > >>Contrary to Catholic dogma, which teaches that infants are to be > >>"baptized", in all of Patrick's writings he does not mention one > >>single incident when he baptized an infant, much less someone who > >>had not professed Christ as their Saviour. Patrick records the > >>baptism of one convert named Enda the night after his infant son, > >>Cormac, was born. What an ideal opportunity to record the baptism > >>of an infant, and yet Patrick makes no mention of it at all. Only > >>Enda, a professed believer; not his infant son who could make no > >>claim of Christ. In all of his writings, the great Irish preacher > >>never mentions or even alludes to pedobaptism (the baptism of > >>infants). In fact, each time he refers to baptism at all he calls > >>those ready for the ordinance of baptism "baptized captives", > >>"baptized handmaidens of Christ", "baptized women distributed as > >>rewards", "baptized believers", "men" and "women." In one place, > >>Patrick wrote, "Perhaps, since I have baptized so many thousand > >>men, I might have expected half a screpall [a coin worth six cents] > >>from some of them..." Notice that he refers to having baptized > >>"...so many thousand men..", no infants, but men; adult, > >>professing, believing, responsible men. Another place he writes, > >>"So that even after my death I may leave as legacies to my > >>brethren...whom I have baptized in the Lord, so many thousand men." > >>Again he acknowledges the fact that he has baptized thousands of > >>men, but not one infant. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number Two: St. Patrick Baptized By Immersion Only > >> > >> > >> > >>This has been a leading principle among the Baptists since the days > >>of the Apostles and still is today. Again, in all of his writings > >>there is not one shred of evidence that the Irish preacher knew > >>anything of sprinkling. All of the records of his baptisms tell of > >>immersion. Cathcart (along with Nennius, Todd, O'Farrell and other > >>church historians) records one such instance, "When the saint > >>entered Tirawly, the seven sons of Amalgaidh assembled with their > >>followers. Profiting by the presence of so vast a multitude, the > >>apostle entered into the midst of them, his soul inflamed with the > >>love of God, and with a celestial courage preached the truths of > >>Christianity; and so powerful was the effect of his burning words > >>that the seven princes and over twelve thousand more were converted > >>on that day, and were soon baptized in a spring called Tobar > >>Enadhaire" (The Baptist Encyclopedia [1881], by William Cathcart, > >>page 887). Dr. Cathcart further states, "There is absolutely no > >>evidence that any baptism but that of immersion of adult believers > >>existed among the ancient Britons, in the first half of the fifth > >>century, nor for a long time afterwards." > >> > >> > >> > >>In 1631 the English Baptists discovered, and subsequently > >>corresponded with, small communities of Baptists in Ireland and > >>found them to be sound. These churches, located in Dublin, > >>Waterford, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Cork, Limerick, Galloway, Wexford, > >>Carrick Fergus and Kerry are listed in Joseph Ivimey's > >>comprehensive History of the English Baptists [1811], Volume 1, > >>Pages 240-241. It is believed that some of these churches had > >>histories dating to the time of Patrick. Many of them can > >>substantiate and confirm their claims of such for nearly 1100 > >>years, which places them within two hundred years of Patrick. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number Three: In Church Government, St. Patrick Was A Baptist > >> > >> > >> > >>During his ministry, Patrick is recorded to have "founded 365 > >>churches and consecrated the same number of bishops, and ordained > >>3,000 presbyters (Ancient British and Irish Churches, William > >>Cathcart, page 282). Anglican Bishop Stillingfleet refers to an > >>account of a great council of Brevy, Wales at which there were 118 > >>Irish bishops. Noting that if these were Catholic bishops this > >>little island was in danger of "...going to seed --- in bishops." > >>Other historians concede that "...Saint Patrick placed a bishop in > >>every church which he founded; and several presbyters after the > >>example of the New Testament churches." One such scholar, a Dr. > >>Carew of Maynooth, admits that a bishop "...was simply the pastor > >>of one congregation." The Catholic and Protestant idea of a bishop > >>being the head over several churches in different cities was > >>totally unknown among those early churches on the British Isles. > >>This can be confirmed from writings of Irish clergymen dated from > >>A.D. 1112 and reconfirmed from the same in A.D. 1057. > >> > >> > >> > >>Number Four: Patrick Was A Baptist In Independence From Creeds, > >>Councils, Popes, etc. > >> > >> > >> > >>Patrick never attended one council and recognized no authority over > >>him, save that of the Lord Jesus Himself. There is not any evidence > >>whatsoever that even remotely suggests that the famed Irish > >>preacher acknowledged any man to be of superior authority, power or > >>position than he. He recognized no Pope. He recognized no Cardinal. > >>In all of his writings it cannot be found where one time he > >>subscribes to even the most insignificant and remote catechism, > >>creed, or dogma of the Roman Catholic system. Of all the great > >>Christians that Patrick refers to in his letters, he never pays > >>homage to any Pope, nor mentions any man as being superior in > >>church clergy. Instead, the great Irish missionary speaks of his > >>love, regards, and terms of affection for those men whom had been > >>ordained as pastors of the churches he founded. Upon the authority > >>of the little Baptist church in Scotland where he was saved and > >>from which he received his commission much as did Paul and Barnabus > >>(Acts 15:22). > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number Five: In Doctrine, Patrick Was A Baptist > >> > >> > >> > >>In all of his writings, all of the doctrine that Patrick espouses > >>adherence to is consistent with historic Baptist doctrine. The > >>venerable preacher wrote, "It is Christ who gave His life for thee > >>(and) is He who speaks to thee. He has poured out upon us > >>abundantly the Holy Spirit, the gift and assurance of immortality, > >>who causes men to believe and become obedient that they might be > >>the sons of God and joint heirs with Christ." In this one > >>statement, Patrick alludes to six (6) major Baptist doctrines: > >> > >> > >> > >>a. Patrick believed in the substitutionary atonement of Christ. He > >>did not believe that salvation comes through catechism, communion, > >>confession or christening. He believes what Baptists have always > >>believed, that all are saved by the Grace of God, through faith in > >>His Son, coming in repentance, and by His blood. William Cathcart > >>wrote, "There is no ground for doubting but that he preached the > >>gospel of repentance and faith in Ireland, and that his > >>ministrations were attended by overwhelming success" (The Baptist > >>Encyclopedia, page 887). > >> > >> > >> > >>b. He believes in the free gift of the Holy Spirit which comes to > >>the believer at the moment of salvation. He does not believe that > >>the gift of the Holy Spirit is a separate work of grace, nor is He > >>manifested by speaking in tongues (John 14:16). > >> > >> > >> > >>c. He also firmly conveys the message of the eternal security of > >>the believer in that those who are genuinely saved have put on > >>immortality (II Timothy 1:10). > >> > >> > >> > >>d. He confirms his belief that men must be drawn by God in order to > >>be saved (John 6:44). > >> > >> > >> > >>e. Patrick affirms his conviction in the sonship of the believer > >>(John 1:12). He believes that while Jesus Christ is the only > >>begotten Son of God, every true believer in Christ is also a son. > >> > >> > >> > >>f. And the great Irish theologian attests to the fact that all > >>believers are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:16-17). Patrick's > >>doctrine is also recorded by his disciples. Comgall writes, > >>"religion does not exist in bodily efforts..." Muirchu states that > >>the ancient poet Dubthac was redeemed under the ministry of Patrick > >>and that he "...first on that day believed in God and it was > >>imputed to him for righteousness" No mention of baptism for > >>salvation. No mention of a confessional. No mention of communion. > >>Patrick taught his disciples well that salvation comes only by and > >>through the grace of Almighty God. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number Six: In Terms Of The Lord's Supper, Patrick Was A Baptist > >> > >> > >> > >> From his writings we know that he rejected the Roman Catholic > >>view of salvation in the ordinance. Also from his writings, we know > >>that Patrick believed that the believer himself should partake of > >>both elements of communion, the bread and the cup, and not just the > >>administrator exclusively. In writing of the conversion of the two > >>daughters of Irish King Loeghaire under his ministry, Patrick tells > >>them to put away their idols and trust Christ alone. His > >>instructions to them regarding the Lord's Supper is that they > >>receive both elements representative of His body and blood. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number Seven: Patrick Rejects The Roman Catholic Dogma Of > >> Transubstantiation > >> > >> > >> > >>Patrick believed that the elements were only pictures of Christ's > >>body and Christ's blood. Dr. Jarrell wrote, "In all the > >>descriptions of the Eucharist quoted there is no evidence that it > >>is...", or literally becomes the flesh of Christ and His blood. The > >>elements are merely symbols of such. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Number Eight: Patrick Never Affirmed His Belief In, Or Adherence > >>To, > >> Many Crucial Catholic Pecularities > >> > >> > >> > >>St. Patrick was a Baptist and the first Irish churches were Baptist > >>churches. He knew nothing of priestly confession and priestly > >>forgiveness. He was not acquainted with extreme unction. He > >>strictly forbade the worship of images. Never once did he instruct > >>his converts that they were to pay homage to Mary or worship her. > >>He never mentions the intercession of Mary or of any departed > >>saint. In all of his writings there is no mention at all of > >>purgatory, of indulgences, of keeping holy days, of praying to > >>anyone but God Himself, of the persecution of opposers of the > >>church, of distinguishing clerical garments, of the rosary, of last > >>rites, of mass, of allegiance to the Pope. None of these crucial > >>Catholic doctrines and dogmas were practiced by or even mentioned > >>by the great missionary to Ireland. > >> > >> > >> > >>It is my firm conviction that it has sufficiently been shown that > >>Saint Patrick was not a Roman Catholic in doctrine or practice, but > >>rather an early Baptist preacher following in the footsteps of the > >>Apostles themselves, believing what they believed, practicing what > >>they practiced. In conclusion, it seems that the words of W.A. > >>Jarrell on this subject are most fitting, "Were Patrick not turned > >>to dust, and were the body able to hear and turn, he would turn > >>over in his coffin at the disgrace on his memory from the Romish > >>church claiming him as a Roman Catholic" (Baptist Church Perpetuity > >>or History, page 479). > >> > >> > > > >-- > >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > >pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > >"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > >in all things, charity." > > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in > non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity." -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pastor Steven G. Rockhill Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church PO Box 88 Lisbon, NY 13658 315-393-9041 revrock@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++