Steven,
I agree with all that you say but I don't think that to pray for
persecution is necessarily a prideful or self glorifying effort.
Thank you for your position.  Most of what you say is why I didn't just
pray for it as the thought crossed my mind.
But, I am not suggesting in any way that we "tempt" God (that was the
reason for my mention of Judas in the last post).  We agree too on the
faithfulness.  But, I believe we do see that so much unfaithfulness in
many areas of the church has diluted our witness and therefore, I think,
made us less effective.  How many of us have "resisted unto blood"? Heb.
4:12.  
Again, I don't suggest we start any fights but refuse to back down.  In
love, with grace of course.

DG

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 11:18 AM
To: pastorsforum@...
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Prayer for persecution?


Dale,
   What I am saying is that I don't think we should be praying for 
persecution to come at all.  We should expect that it will come but I 
don't think we should call it upon ourselves.  As I posted to Derick, 
would that not be akin to tempting God?  My concern is that if we pray 
for it then we are seeking our own glory - like saying I want to do 
something really great so that I can bring glory to God.  But God is not

interested in our 'great acts and deeds' - He is interested in our 
faithfulness to do His Will (maybe a great deed maybe not) and if we do 
that and persecution comes then it is He who receives all the glory.  I 
believe our pride can too easily get in the way even in desiring 
something 'noble'.

Peace,
Steve

Dale Gooding wrote:

> Steven,
> I agree with your post after the 1st paragraph.
> I really tried to present the question with regard to the prayer not 
> being for self glory or even personal martyrdom. In your face 
> evangelism has always stunk to me and wouldn't encourage it now.  I 
> didn't even do "street preaching" in college because the guys doing it

> were very "in your face" and I think that is wrong.
> Maybe I just wasn't very clear in the initial post.  It would be wrong
> to pray for persecution for any reason other than God's glory.
> The reason I haven't prayed for it is because I don't want to force
> God's hand as some believe Judas did by turning Jesus over.
> 
> DG
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 10:36 AM
> To: pastorsforum@...
> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Prayer for persecution?
> 
> 
> Dale,
>    We just had this discussion in Sunday school this week.  I don't
> think that we are to pray for persecution to come.  Being a martyr for

> Christ is one thing but being a martyr to receive self-glory, honor
and 
> praise is another.  Someone once told me that what the church needs 
> about now is a good dose of persecution.  Though as you note below -
the
> 
> Gospel spreads like wildfire during times of persecution - I don't 
> think
> 
> we need to call the wrath of man upon us unnecessarily.  I think of 
> that
> 
> group of protesters in Philadelphia who are being tried, albeit the
> allegations are trumped up - but 'in your face' evangelism seems to
me, 
> to be more about desiring the self-glory of persecution than desiring 
> the glory of Christ.  In other words they are cats not dogs. :-)
>    There are many brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world 
> who are persecuted for their faith and would love to have the freedoms

> that we have.  Consider those freedoms for a moment - freedom of
speech 
> and freedom of assembly in particular.  Have we in the US taken these 
> freedoms for granted?  I believe we have.  If we truly take advantage
of
> 
> these freedoms with the intent of spreading the Gospel of Christ I
> believe persecution will come - the Bible promises it.  So if we are
not
> 
> being persecuted - we may have to ask ourselves - what aren't we
doing? 
>   Are we truly being salt and light?  Are we serious about reaching 
> the
> lost outside the four walls of the church building? Are we serious
about
> 
> impacting our local communities for the name of Christ and His Gospel?
>    I do believe that persecution is not very far off.  Consider our
> neighbors to the North - Canada.  We are not far from that.  And as
was 
> noted earlier - we can't even use a word like 'crusade' without
someone 
> getting bent out of shape.  It has already started, though very
subtly, 
> Christians are being silenced or at least having to watch what they 
> speak in public.
>     I have frequently warned my congregation about this so that they 
> will be prepared.
> 
> Just my thoughts,
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Gooding wrote:
> 
>>Guys,
>>In your opinion, would it be wrong to literally pray for persecution?
>>I mean, we all know that the church has seen most of its fruit while 
>>under P. so is it possible that we are not offensive enough and need 
>>to become so in order to really be used by God? Now, I don't mean to 
>>go out and start fights just so we can act all pious.  But, maybe some
> 
> 
>>of us need to do less backing down, watering down, stepping back,
>>deferring, etc... and call sin, sinners, etc... by what they are.  I 
>>know many of us do but do we encourage our people who work in the 
>>secular field to not back down when evolution is taught in schools, 
>>refuse to capitulate on our morals when the boss says to become less 
>>outspoken to the sodomites in the work place, to refuse to refer to 
>>Jesus Christ in the workplace parties while God's name and standards 
>>are mocked at every turn, when immorality and perversity are exalted 
>>and Christianity is condemned?  Again, that is not to suggest we 
>>should open up our Bibles and start preaching in our cubicle or work 
>>area at lunch but at the same time refuse to not read our Bible in 
>>private or stand up for what we believe due to PC (political 
>>correctness). Just a thought.
>> 
>>DG
>>
>>
> 
> 
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> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in 
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> 
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> 
> 

-- 
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++++++
Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
PO Box 88
Lisbon, NY  13658
315-393-9041
revrock@...
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"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in
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