Derrick, WARNINGS? Did I read you right? "Despite Calvin's warnings?" Calvin THREATENED another Christian with bodily harm over a doctrinal difference. How about THAT for "reformed" theology! The point is that people were only able to believe what they were ALLOWED to believe! Don't you get it? Calvin sought a PERFECT city based on HIS understandings of Scripture and was willing to torture and kill anyone who did not agree with him, and would not rule over a city that did not agree to let him act as the supreme pontiff of that city, in its faith and practices. Great chistian. Yuk. Again, you said, "I would say that no church father would have held to the strong Dispensational aspects of that system" which means absolutely NOTHING since people were not allowed to hold to ANY Biblical beliefs other than the ones forced on them until just 200 years ago. Anyone who believed any different paid with their blood. Don't lean on the "historical position" too hard - it only pierces you through. Hold to the Bible - end of story (as we say here)! Craig Ledbetter www.biblebc.com -----Original Message----- From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] Sent: 01 June 2005 23:25 To: pastorsforum@... Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism Craig, A couple of things. Serevetus sought out Calvin and came to Calvin despite Calvin's warnings. No one sought Serevetus out, he sought them out. Secondly, that is an event in the 1500's not the early church fathers in which the article quoted. Thirdly, the issue of the Trinity is a different matter. Calvin even trained and discipled early Baptists (whom he called anabaptists). He strongly opposed some Anabaptists, and rightly so, but he was very close to anaBaptists and they never lost their life. So, to answer your question, on this issue I doubt people would have been killed. Were people killed wrongly over other issues. Of course, but many sides of many arguments are guilty of that crime. ------------------------------------ Wallers Baptist Church Pastor derick@... PO Box 95 Partlow VA 22534 tel: 540-582-5703 mobile: 540-894-1772 www.thedickensfamily.org ------------------------------------ > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Ledbetter [mailto:craigled@...] > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:18 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism > > > Derrick, > > If any church "father" did attempt to hold to anything other > than the accepted line of theology of the time (like > Servetus), they would have been hunted down and burned and > their books burned so that nobody else could become > "infected" with the heresy. History is not complete. You > don't know WHAT people believed - only what they were allowed > to believe! > > > Craig Ledbetter > www.biblebc.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > Sent: 01 June 2005 21:13 > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism > > David, > > I just sent through a chart explaining Dispensationalism in > comparison to CT, NCT and now PD... I would say that no > church father would have held to the strong Dispensational > aspects of that system. > > Derick > > ------------------------------------ > Wallers Baptist Church > Pastor > derick@... > PO Box 95 > Partlow VA 22534 > tel: 540-582-5703 > mobile: 540-894-1772 > www.thedickensfamily.org > ------------------------------------ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pastor David Warner [mailto:dwarner@...] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:05 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism > > > > > > This was not the complete article. I was just wonder on this > > much of it fit the 150 history Derick gave. I should have > > included the link so here it is. > > > > http://www.biblebelievers.com/BlueDISP.html > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:48 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism > > > > > > This seems to be forcing the framework of dispensationalism > > on the early church fathers. Just because they viewed history > > in blocks based on prominent individuals does not mean they > > are dispensationalists. He gives no evidence that the early > > use of these (dispensations) means the same as what folks > > today mean when they talk about dispensations or > > dispensationalism. I believe the Westminster Confession of > > Faith (1643) uses the term dispensations but most certainly > > not in the same way that dispensationalists today would use > > the term. Case in point at the opposite spectrum of > > dispensationalism is covenant theology. Covenant theologians > > recognize the following covenants - Adamic, Noahic, > > Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and the New Covenant. (note these > > are some of the same divisions noted below. But in covenant > > theology the epochs are not distinct and separate but build > > on one another with that later being more explicit or showing > > a different facet of the earlier ones. And there is weaving > > through all this the one unified Covenant of Grace. > > > > Sorry Bro. Papa I can't answer your questions - well I could > > but you wouldn't like my answers. :-). > > > > Peace, > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > ? > > Pastor David Warner wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:38 PM > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism > > > > > > I am curious as to why someone would want > > Dispensationalism spelled > > > out in your doctrinal statement? Would you wish to > disassociate > > > with other churches who rejected dispensationalism or > > would you want > > > to reject members based upon dispensationalism? I am curious > > > because this 150 year old theology does not seem to be > > intrinsic to > > > a church identity. > > > > > > Derick > > > > > > > > > > > > How does this fit with a 150 year old theology? > > > David Warner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The History of Dispensationalism > > > > > > As the decades come and go, so do the issues > > surrounding what the > > > Bible actually teaches. One decade saw the battle over > > the virgin > > > birth. The next witnessed a battle for the preservation > > of the King > > > James Bible. The most recent debate is over the > pre-tribulation > > > rapture verses the "pre-wrath" or mid-tribulation rapture > > > position. > > > > > > Some critics assume that dispensationalism is a > recent doctrine > > > invented by Dr. C. I. Scofield, editor of the famous Scofield > > > Reference Bible, and J. N. Darby; implying that > > dispensationalism is > > > a doctrine of modern times and does not have Biblical > authority. > > > However, research will show that neither C. I. > Scofield or J. N. > > > Darby are the inventors of dispensationalism or the > > final authority > > > on the subject. > > > > > > From the first century, writers believed in different > > economies or > > > administrations. Bible instructor Larry V. Crutchfield, of > > > Baumholder, West Germany, has written an article > titled Ages and > > > Dispensations Of The Ante-Nicene Fathers. In it he > > points out that > > > the Fathers of early church history believed in > > divisions of history > > > based on God's dealings with man. He states, "Among > those whose > > > doctrine of ages and dispensations has survived from > > the Ante-Nicene > > > period are Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, > > Methodius, and to a > > > minor degree Victorinus of Petau." > > > > > > Crutchfield says that "Barnabas' year-day tradition is > > the earliest > > > budding of the dispensational understanding of God's > > dealings with > > man." > > > > > > Justin Martyr (AD 100-165): according to Crutchfield, Justin > > > believed in four phases of human history in God's > > program. The first > > > was from Adam to Abraham; the second was from Abraham > > to Moses; the > > > third was from Moses to Christ; and the fourth was from > > Christ to > > > the eternal state. > > > > > > Irenaeus (AD 120-202): The dispensational scheme of > > Irenaeus is four > > > in number. They are: 1. From the Creation to the Flood. > > 2. From the > > > Flood to the Law. 3. From the Law to the Gospel. 4. > > From the Gospel > > > to the Eternal State. He taught that there were four > > zones of the > > > world and of mankind. He saw a connection between these > > zones, the > > > faces of the "four living creatures", the four gospels > > and the four > > > dispensations. > > > > > > "Some Fathers set forth only four such dispensations, > > others came > > > very close to making nearly the same divisions modern > > > dispensationalists do," says Crutchfield. > > > > > > He continues, "Irenaeus, Victorinus of Petau, and > > Methodius' number > > > of dispensations is artificially restricted to four ... the > > > dispensations are most often spoken of the early > > fathers in terms of > > > the prominent persons." He lists the persons as; Adam, Noah, > > > Abraham, Moses, and Christ. "Dispensational divisions were > > > customarily made along the boundaries of these five > > men's lives and > > > times," concludes Crutchfield. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity."