Kevin, I believe that the Bible teaches being filled with the Spirit as an experience subsequent to being saved ( The Disciples at Ephesus are a perfect example of men who were saved and then afterwards filled with the Spirit.). There is a two-fold work of the Spirit of God ... "the Spirit Within" to manifest the life of Christ (eternal life, regeneration) and "the Spirit Upon" to manifest the power of God for service (first and foremost to witness and share Christ with the lost). I believe that speaking in tongues is one Scriptural evidence of being filled with the Spirit. It is not the only evidence. I prefer to use the expression "Filled witht he Spirit" to "Baptized with the Spirit" because so many Baptists tend to confuse this experience with the work that the Spirit performs in placing the believing sinner into the Body of Christ. ( Same Holy Spirit but a different operation.) I was first witnessed to and prayed for for salvation by Charismatic Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists. A tongues - speaking United Methodist college student actually led me to Christ. in April of 1971. Later, a tongues-speaking United Methodist pastor baptized me by immersion. Christ filled me with the Spirit as I drove my red 1966 Mustang down McIver road in Darlington county at 12:25 AM on Sunday morning of November 21st, 1971. I know when and where it happened. I received a call to the ministry soon afterward. I have attended services at many different Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, independent, AOG, COG, Pentecostal Holiness Church, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, and several others. Most all of the people in these groups love Christ with all there hearts and diligently serve Him. They are strong Bible-believers who are committed tothe authority of the Word of God. Of course, there are a few exceptions ... some people are like a flash in the pan and quickly burn out, losing their zeal. The same thing happens with both P/C groups and the non P/C groups. I have seen dedicated, committed , sincerely devoted church members ... some who spoke in tongues and some who did not speak in tongues ... I have also seen church members who were complacent, and non-committed to spiritual things of both flavors ... The premium is on dedicated, committed servants of Christ , ... not on who had an experience ten years ago and spoke in tongues .... I want to see people sold out and on fire for God!!!! I want to see people live for God on a daily basis. I have seen some people pray and seek the Lord diligently for the fullness of the Spirit ... then, after they spoke in tongues, become complacent and apathetic toward spiritual things. They stop praying and seeking the Lord and they grow cold and spiritually indifferent. It was not the Spirit's fault, it was their fault, ... they stopped seeking the Lord and praying. You cannot maintain the Spirit-filled life without a strong devotional life. The big issue with me is, "Are you sold out and on fire for God, ... are you walking closely with the Lord in your daily life, or are you clinging to a spiritual experience you had years ago?" Jerry L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Sigafoos" <ksigafoos@...> To: <pastorsforum@...> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:44 AM Subject: [PastorsForum] Charismata tangent (was Re: [PastorsForum] I Peter 3:21) On 1/5/06, Miguel <fbco@...> wrote: > I have met several "charismatics" here that have tied the two together - > belief + baptism = salvation...then add tongues is the sign you are truly > saved. > > Now I read your post - I know these other pastors personally - you both > have > different messagess. One is a CoG in Christ, two are AoG, one a Full > Pentecostal - they all have the same doctrine belief + baptism = salvation > with tongues as the proof. > > Reasons like these descrepencies is why many baptist, like myself, do not > accept baptism from non-baptist groups. > > Miguel I was in the AoG for 13 years. I am now SBC. In my years as part of the AoG I never met anyone who believed that "belief + baptism = salvation with tongues as the proof." Salvation was belief. Period. I was baptized by immersion as a believer by a close friend who is an AoG pastor. My SBC church accepted this as a valid baptism. What I did find in the AoG as fairly common, however, was the belief that unless you were "Spirit-filled" (and by that it is meant "speak in tongues") that you were a marginal Christian at best. You could not be expected to be truly effective in God's work until you were "Spirit-filled." When I visited my AoG friends and told them that God has called me to go to seminary, all they wanted to know was whether the seminary was "Spirit-filled." (How does the Spirit fill a building, BTW?) It didn't seem to matter whether the seminary taught the true Word of God and provided a good education. Because it wasn't "Spirit-filled" it was deficient. When I discuss doctrine with my AoG friends, they dismiss my reasoning from Scripture because I am not (or I am no longer) "Spirit-filled." They dismiss the sound Scriptural reasoning of men like John Piper, John MacArthur, Albert Mohler, etc. because they are not "Spirit-filled." This attitude seems semi-gnostic to me. Unless you are "Spirit-filled" then you don't have the inside knowledge necessary to truly understand God's Word and you don't have what it takes to be used by God. This is what most bothers me about the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. I am a born-again son of God. I was purchased by Christ's blood. I love God's Word and I believe every word is true and without error. I have dedicated my life to serving Him and following Him wherever He would lead me. My greatest desire is to be used by Him to build up His kingdom. I left my family and friends and job to move half-way across the country to study His Word. But I can't be used by God because I don't speak in tongues?!? To use a new Greek word I learned since coming to this forum ... HOGWASH. -- Grace and peace, Kevin Sigafoos --------------------- For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36) -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity."