I'm still weeding through all that has been written lately. When discussing election/reprobation, Doc said: On 1/8/06, DAVID POWELL <dpowellaz@...> wrote: > > I believe the sense is that God has foreknowledge of everything. So far so good. But then he writes: >I believe that Judas had a choice and it was not final until he > chose to betray Jesus. If he had chosen to not betray him then God would > have had another way to accomplish his will. Here you step right into Open Theism, doc. Did God know that Judas was going to betray Jesus? When did He know? Did God have a "Plan B" if Judas choose not to betray Jesus? Here's what the Scripture says: Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Judas is described as the "son of destruction," not the "son who choose destruction." Judas was born for the very purpose of betraying Jesus, just as Pharoah was born for the very purpose that God might harden his heart so that His power to save Israel might be displayed (Rom 9:17-18). When did Jesus say the words in John 17:12? Before Judas betrayed him. So Jesus knew Judas' choice before he made it. What else did Jesus say about Judas and his choice? Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. (Joh 6:70-71) This is early in Jesus' ministry and here John identifies Judas as "a devil" and the one who was "going to betray him." There is no indication that he has any choice in the matter. John doesn't say "Judas ... who was going to choose to betray him." What does John 17:12 say about Judas' choice? It was made so that "Scripture might be fulfilled." The Scriptures to which Jesus refers are Psalm 109:6-19 and Psalm 41:9. God knew Judas' choice during the reign of David. It is not possible for Scripture to go unfulfilled. That would make God a liar. Peter said that Judas "had to" fulfill the Scriptures (Acts 1:16). So Judas had no choice in the matter. He had to play his part in the drama of redemption. This was the plan which God ordained from the foundation of the world and it was unalterable. Speaking to the crowd at Pentecost, Peter says: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. (Act 2:22-24) Jesus' death and resurrection was according to God's "definite plan and foreknowledge of God." This plan was determined before the world was created. (1 Pe 1:20) Yet that does not excuse the actions of Judas, Caiaphas, Herod, Pilate, etc. in carrying out that plan. These action were sinful and are justly condemned. Peter says that this "definite plan" was the result of personal action ("... you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."). So Scripture sees no contradiction between human freedom and God sovereignly ordaining all that comes to pass. Further down doc writes: >Does God know who will be > saved? Of course! My question would then be if election is predetermined > then by what criteria does God make His choice to send some to heaven and > some to hell? One word, doc. Grace. If there was a "criteria" than it wouldn't be grace, it would be works (Rom 11:16). -- Grace and peace, Kevin Sigafoos --------------------- For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)