Romans 3:11-12 None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. In other words, no one seeks after God. THis is one verse, we could provide more if needed. Derick > Thought that would be the answer. Where does the Bible say a person > cannot, of their own volition, come to Christ Jesus? Again, I'm trying to > understand not debate. > > Bill > > "Derick R. Dickens" <Derick@...> wrote: > Bill, > > I think the question assumes a false dichotomy. Let me explain. All > those who truly repent of their sins are those who are drawn by the > father. You will not have anyone repent and believe who are not chosen. > Why? It is God who grants repentance (Acts 11:18). As well, no one will > seek after God without being drawn (Romans 3:10-11). > > Now, can someone do an external display of "belief" and "repentance" and > not be saved? Of course. Someone can even fool themselves and "go > through the motions". > > Derick > >> Greetings Derick, >> >> Got a question. not wanting to debate just a question. >> >> Jesus himself said the following in John 6: >> 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes >> to me I will never cast out. >> Again he said: >> 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. >> And I will raise him up on the last day. >> >> Question.... What about those who are not sent by the Father, but accept >> Christ Jesus? Romans 10:9-10, Eph. 2:8-9.. Are these people saved? They >> might not know they aren't a part of the elect! >> >> Two issues.... the Father sends, and those who chose to come >> >> Bill Burns >> >> "Derick R. Dickens" wrote: >> Miguel, >> >> I want to caution you once again in making no distinction between >> salvation complete and regeneration. Regeneration is the enrapturing of >> the soul towards God so that the believer can immediately and completely >> place his faith in God. >> >> Derick >> >>> Even Pink states that reformer believe that regeneration preceeds faith >>> - >>> that means unbelievers are saved before the call upon the name of the >>> Lord. There is no faith involved - all those verses that requires one >>> to >>> trust and believe the gospel are negated in Calvinism. >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> -------------- Original message -------------- >>> From: "Derick R. Dickens" >>> >>>> We are not placing a cart before the horse. First, there is no debate >>>> that we must "call on the Lord". The question is this, "Who will call >>>> on >>>> the Lord." Jesus himself said the following in John 6: >>>> >>>> 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to >>>> me >>>> I >>>> will never cast out. >>>> >>>> Again he said: >>>> >>>> 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And >>>> I >>>> will raise him up on the last day. >>>> >>>> I agree with you that we must call on Him. Yet, Jesus in a most clear >>>> manner... he couldn't have been more clear... stated that you cannot >>>> come >>>> to Him unless the Father Draws and that all He draws will come to him. >>>> >>>> This is not contradicting Romans. In fact, Romans says: >>>> >>>> None is righteous, no, not one; >>>> 11 no one understands; >>>> no one seeks for God. >>>> 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; >>>> no one does good, >>>> not even one. >>>> >>>> >>>> In other words, no one has a free choice because no one will choose >>>> God >>>> unless God draws Him... and all that the father draws will come to >>>> Him. >>>> >>>> So, I do not doubt ROmans 10, I just doubt I am getting the cart >>>> before >>>> the horse. It seems to me that Jesus was doing just the same thing. >>>> >>>> > You are placing the cart before the horse. >>>> > >>>> > 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be >>>> saved. >>>> 14 >>>> > How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and >>>> how >>>> > shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall >>>> they >>>> > hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they >>>> be >>>> > sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that >>>> preach >>>> the >>>> > gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they >>>> have >>>> > not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed >>>> our >>>> > report? (Romans 10:13-16 KJV) >>>> > >>>> > Here the Apostle Paul states that whosoever calls shall be saved - a >>>> > choice. >>>> > >>>> > The choice must be made - this is why God sends out those who have >>>> > surrendered to preach the gospel of peace. Even states that not all >>>> have >>>> > obeyed the gospel - choice again. >>>> > >>>> > 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and >>>> in >>>> thy >>>> > heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou >>>> shalt >>>> > confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine >>>> heart >>>> > that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For >>>> with >>>> > the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth >>>> confession >>>> > is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10 KJV) >>>> > >>>> > A popular passage used by nearly all to lead others to Christ. >>>> > >>>> > The Word of Faith - vs 17 - >>>> > vs 9 IF WE CONFESS - there is a choice to be made - and believe in >>>> our >>>> > heart - a choice to be made - the gospel - the promise is salvation. >>>> > >>>> > Now how can one be first regenerated without faith - when it takes >>>> faith >>>> > and a decision to be saved? >>>> > >>>> > Miguel >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -------------- Original message -------------- >>>> > From: "Derick R. Dickens" >>>> > >>>> >> Miguel, >>>> >> >>>> >> I think this is once again a place where you have not read what we >>>> >> actually believe on this issue. We believe that regeneration takes >>>> place >>>> >> before faith but faith immediately preceedes regeneration >>>> (monergism). >>>> >> There is not a gap of minutes, hours, days or years. We believe it >>>> is >>>> >> impossible for a dead man to put their faith in God unless God >>>> awakens >>>> >> the >>>> >> soul through regeneration. Once that happens, our immediate and >>>> natural >>>> >> first reaction is to respond in faith. We cannot be regenerate and >>>> still >>>> >> lack faith nor can we be dead and have faith. >>>> >> >>>> >> Derick >>>> >> >>>> >> > Yes - they all believe that salvation precedes faith - therefore >>>> you >>>> >> have >>>> >> > a bunch of saved unbelievers running around awaiting someone to >>>> come >>>> >> along >>>> >> > and tell them. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Since salvation preceeds faith why even reach out to anyone since >>>> they >>>> >> are >>>> >> > already saved - all according to these great writers. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Miguel >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -------------- Original message -------------- >>>> >> > From: "Steven G. Rockhill" >>>> >> > Miguel I am impressed - now you are reading the good stuff. :-) >>>> Be >>>> >> sure >>>> >> > to check all those Scripture references listed in the footnotes >>>> of >>>> the >>>> >> > Westminster Confession of Faith. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Peace, >>>> >> > Steve >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Miguel wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The Westminster Confession of Faith states: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "This effectual call is of Gods free and special grace alone, >>>> not >>>> >> from >>>> >> > anything at all foreseen in man; who is altogether passive >>>> therein, >>>> >> until, >>>> >> > being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby >>>> enabled >>>> >> to >>>> >> > answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed >>>> in >>>> >> it." >>>> >> > (Note: passive until quickened; thus all conditions of salvation >>>> are >>>> >> done >>>> >> > away, X. II. Emphasis added.) >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Loraine Boettner says: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in >>>> >> Christ >>>> >> > because he is saved." (Loraine Boettner, Predestination, p. 101; >>>> cited >>>> >> by >>>> >> > Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, p. 521.) >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Arthur W. Pink says: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in >>>> Christ, >>>> but >>>> >> he >>>> >> > believes in Christ because he has been regenerated." (Arthur W. >>>> Pink, >>>> >> The >>>> >> > Holy Spirit, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1978, p. 55; cited >>>> by >>>> >> Ibid., >>>> >> > p. 521.) >>>> >> > >>>> >> > R. C. Sproul also says: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again >>>> that >>>> >> we >>>> >> > may believe." (R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God, p. 73; cited by >>>> Ibid., >>>> p. >>>> >> > 521.) >>>> >> > >>>> >> > In reality, the teaching that regeneration precedes faith cannot >>>> be >>>> >> > divorced from divine election. For if God must take the >>>> initiative >>>> to >>>> >> act >>>> >> > upon us in order for us to believe, then those who do believe do >>>> so >>>> by >>>> >> > Gods election, and those who do not believe, do not believe >>>> because >>>> >> God >>>> >> > has not elected them. This conclusion is inescapable. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>> >> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; >>>> and >>>> in >>>> >> all >>>> >> > things, charity." >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >> > Pastor Steven G. Rockhill >>>> >> > Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church >>>> >> > PO Box 88 >>>> >> > Lisbon, NY 13658 >>>> >> > 315-393-9041 >>>> >> > revrock@... >>>> >> > http://lisbonrpc.port5.com >>>> >> > http://firmfooting.blogspot.com >>>> >> > >>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>> >> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; >>>> and >>>> in >>>> >> all >>>> >> > things, charity." >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>> >> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; >>>> and >>>> in >>>> >> all >>>> >> > things, charity." >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>> >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>>> >> >>>> >> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and >>>> in >>>> >> all >>>> >> things, charity." >>>> >> >>>> > -- >>>> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>>> > >>>> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and >>>> in >>>> all >>>> > things, charity." >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>>> >>>> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in >>>> all >>>> things, charity." >>>> >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in >>> all >>> things, charity." >>> >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in >> all >> things, charity." >> >> >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in >> all >> things, charity." >> > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." >