Miguel, I do not think this is a ploy. Remember, it was the non-Calvinists who came up with TULIP. They believed at the time that you had no choice but to take one side or the other. It was not the reformed camp that did this, but the non-reformed. Yet, I do see the wisdom in doing such. For instance, you can't believe in Total Depravity and deny the rest of TULIP. To believe in Total Depravity means you believe that you must be regenerated before faith. You, as well, cannot believe in Unconditional Election and believe that God's choice is based upon man's not the other way around. Limited Atonement (better off as Definite Atonement) is the same way... all the way through. Thus, the issue, in my opinion, is that you either agree with them all or don't. It was the non-reformed camp that advanced TULIP, but reformed camp have used it as a way of showing our differences. Derick > This is a ploy of Calvinism - to separate everyone into one of two groups > - either you are a calvinist and if not you then must be arminian. > > The real issue is that both of these positions are man-made and wrong. > > Calvinist sees it there way is the only way and everyone else is lost and > Arminian. > > Miguel > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Steven G. Rockhill" <revrock@...> > Jeff, > I love this position of not being Reformed or Arminian. Did you read my > post about inconsistent arminianism? I would love to see a refutation > of arminianism from someone who claims to not be "reformed or arminian". > But all I ever see from people who claim to be neither is attacks on > Reformed teaching but never on arminianism, any clue as to why that is? > > Peace, > Steve > > Jeff Hallmark wrote: > > > Bro. Derick, can one who is neither Reformed or Arminian get involved? > For I am neither Reformed or Arminian and have a couple of the books > mentioned. > As time allow I will try to keep up, > Bro. Jeff > see below > >> >> >> We have delved into this discussion whereas I believe there is little >> out >> there left to discuss in a cohesive manner and constructive. Thus, I >> want >> to set down a challenge, a challenge that would only invite cooperation >> as >> well as a dispelling of myths on both sides while attempting to explore >> the issues. >> >> Here is the challenge. I propose a discussion of four books. Two books >> being given by my brethren on the opposing viewpoint of my own and two >> books that my side recommends that best advances our viewpoint. Each >> person involved could obtain a copy for their own, if they did not own >> it, >> and we could begin a discussion of two chapters a week. One chapter from >> the non-reformed book and one chapter from the reformed book. We will >> limit the discussion to the issues that the authors discuss. >> >> In this discussion, I understand there could be limitations on this >> list. >> If the forum moderator believes this should take place in a different >> venue, we could create either of the following: >> >> 1. Another e-mail list for such that purpose. >> 2. I could create a Bulliten Board so we can keep the topics on track. >> >> I am not afraid of reading people with contrary views of my own and >> believe that this could best help all of us understand the other side >> while reading the other side's arguments first hand. I am curious on who >> may be interrested. Again, we are each responsible for buying our own >> books, reading them, and sticking to the topic in the book. Who would be >> interested? >> >> I am open to what my side would want in reading, but these books have >> been >> most influential in my life: > > I do have these books, and one online ~ Jeff > >> 1. The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Boetner) >> 2. The Sovereignty of God (Pink) >> 3. A number of books by R.C. Sproul. I could list some, but I think his >> book on Reformed Theology that is in a white cover (can't remember the >> name) is very good. >> 4. The Potter's Freedom by White >> 5. Easy Chairs Hard Words by Doug Wilson (for obvious reasons I hesitate >> using Wilson). >> 6. The Bondage of the Will by Luther >> >> So, what say ye? >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and >> in all things, charity." > >> > > > > Presenting the Prince of Peace to Prince George > > Spruceland Baptist Church > > To avoid burning.....use "Son" blocker. > > > > > > > -- > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Pastor Steven G. Rockhill > Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church > PO Box 88 > Lisbon, NY 13658 > 315-393-9041 > revrock@... > http://lisbonrpc.port5.com > http://firmfooting.blogspot.com > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." >