Hi Jerry K, On 7/28/06, Jerry Krewson <krewfam@...> wrote: > > Also, I am not close to your intellectual prowess, and I don't say that as a put-down to myself, it is just a fact; however, I am going out on a limb and say this about your statement: > Gosh, I hope I don't come across as a "know-it-all." I sometimes forget that I'm not writing a term paper in my emails. I love to discuss this stuff but I hope I don't sound smug. When it comes to the practical elements of day-to-day ministry, I'm learning a bunch from you guys. I appreciate reading all of the various points-of-view in this forum. And the best thing about all of you guys is that everyone seems to have a real heart for the lost. On 7/28/06, Jerry Krewson <krewfam@...> wrote: > You did not answer my question to your sentence: Jesus wept over people who rejected Him. > > > How can a person "reject" what he is predestined not to accept? > I'm sorry. I guess my previous message was too short. A person can reject what he was predestined not to accept because he retains personal responsibility and he is truly free. Predestination does not take away our freedom but it changes its definition. Scripture teaches both that God foreordains all things and man is responsible for his actions. I think compatibilistic freedom helps us to understand how both of these things can be true. But even if it does not, we must still accept them as true because Scripture teaches that they are true. Let's start with the basics. God knows everything. God knows the past perfectly. He knows the present perfectly. And He knows the future perfectly. God even knows the realm of the possible perfectly. What I mean is that He not only knows what everyone will decide, he also knows what would have happened if they decided differently. So why do we make the decisions that we do? There are a number of factors, many of them beyond our control. Did we determine where we would be born? Who were to be our parents? Where we would live? What would be our drives, our appetites, our passions, our desires, our motivations? Think about it. Jerry in AZ is probably having TexMex tonight for dinner but Jeff in the "True North" probably is not. Why? Because where we live impacts our tastes and, therefore, our choices. Furthermore, there are probably 100 places for TexMex within 25 miles of Jerry but Jeff would have to go well out of his way to get some. So if our choice of "what's for dinner" is impacted by something as simple as where we live, what about the more important decisions? I had the opportunity to hear the gospel and respond to the offer of salvation at an early age. A boy living in Saudi Arabia probably does not have this opportunity. Who determined where I was to be born? What parents I would have? etc. God, of course. So ... what if God, knowing perfectly the realm of the possible, decided to create a person whom He know would act exactly as He wanted him to act. Wouldn't that person still be free? Let's go "Twilight Zone" for a minute. One thing I don't think I have mentioned on this forum is that I'm a bass player. Suppose on a given Sunday I am playing "Every Move I Make, I Make In You" (an appropriate song given the current topic). There are an infinite number of note choices that I could make during the transition from C to G after the chorus (well, maybe not infinite choices given the limits of musical tastes, but bear with me). Kevin "A" is alike to Kevin "B" in every regard (every decision, every thought, etc.) EXCEPT that at this particular moment, on this particular Sunday, Kevin "B" would choice to stay on the root (the C chord) while Kevin "A" would choose a tasteful little run down from the fifth of the chord. Couldn't God choose to create Kevin "A" rather than Kevin "B" just because it pleased Him that the song be played in a certain way on a certain day? Is Kevin "A" is "free" to decide to stay on the root? Sure. There's no one controlling my hands. But Kevin "A" will most certainly not choose to do so because God has made it certain, though not necessary, and God can not be wrong. So predestination, even in the most mundane choices of life, does not remove personal choice and thus it also does not remove personal responsibility. This means that I am not under constraint. I am free to do whatever pleases me. But I am not free with respect to what pleases me and what does not. I may choose one course of action because it appeals to me but I am not in control of the appeal of those actions. So to bring it back to Jesus weeping over Jerusalem. Jesus could weep because the people made the free choice to reject him. Yet that choice was made long ago by an omniscient, omnipotent God. The fact that God chose to create people whom He knew would reject the Messiah does not remove their choice. I hope this does not come across as mere double talk and word-play gymnastics. I believe it is biblical theology and the reason why Paul ends his wonderful description of the Sovereignty of God with: Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! (Rom 11:33) -- Grace and peace, Kevin Sigafoos --------------------- For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)