Derick,

I read a quote from Boettner, from the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, 
... "The doctrine of absolute predestination of course logically holds that 
some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life." 
And then he says, "This, too, is of God. We believe that from all eternity 
God has intended to leave some of Adam's posterity in their sins, and that 
the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God's will."

John R Rice says, "So hyper-Calvinism ( Jerry - and I see little difference 
between what he calls "hyper-Calvinism" and reformed theology) teaches that 
it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever.  He never 
intended to save them. He foreordained them to be damned.  When He offers 
mercy in the Bible, He does it with the plain knowledge that some men cannot 
accept it, because He will not help them to accept it.  So says the extreme 
Calvinist."

I do not know how you define fatalism, ... but that is what this is. It is 
that one's "fate" has already been determined and that the individual has no 
choice in the matter.  And several of you brothers (reformers) have 
indicated that if something was God's will, it would happen, ... and if it 
was not His will, it wouldn't.  Hey, ... that is fatalism.  And when someone 
says, "God is in control, what ever happens is His will," ... that is 
fatalism.  When another says, "There is a reason for everything," that is 
fatalism. It is the same with the Muslins who say, "It was the will of 
Allah" when horrible things happen.  They see everything that happens as the 
will of Allah.  That too is fatalism.

I do believe in Predestination, that God has destined Israel and the Church 
in His plans and purposes.  That is indicated in the Scriptures.  But I do 
not see that the Bible teaches that He predestines individuals to be saved 
or lost.  God's great invitation is for "whosoever,"  and I believe it is an 
honest, straightforward, and open door for all men to come into the fold and 
be saved.

Mark 16:15-17 NIV 15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the 
good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be 
saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 17:30 KJV ... but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Jerry





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derick Dickens" <Derick@...>
To: <pastorsforum@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Promised Land


> Doc,
>
> Come on, you do know the difference between fatalism and calvinism don't
> you?  I have on this list explained the difference a number of times.
> Yet, the issue is not calling it names, the issue is what the Bible
> says.  That is why I keep quoting verses like Romans 9, John 6,
> Ephesians 2 and that is why I answer the Biblical objections.  Why?
> Because I believe the Bible discusses these issues and that my belief is
> rooted in the Word of God.  There is no denial of personal
> responsibility in Calvinism, there is only a denial to those who distort 
> our beliefs.  Your understanding of Calvinism (which is
> not what Steve, Kevin, nor I hold to) is the popular Southern Baptist 
> mischaracterization of the belief.
>
> Doc, read some of the greats of Calvinism instead of what the Southern
> Baptist hierarchy says we believe.  You will find that what we believe
> and what they say we believe is radically different.  You can start with
> the 2nd London Baptist Confession and Lorraine Boetner.  Calling us
> fatalistic does not make it so and is usually a smoke screen and 
> academically wrong.  Yes, we believe the Bible, that is why we love 
> discussing the text of Scripture, not a philosophy of "free will" or the 
> like.
>
> Derick
>
> Dpowellaz2@... wrote:
>> In a message dated 12/14/2006 8:52:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, 
>> Derick@... writes:
>>
>>     Doc,
>>
>>     That is similar to what open theism says about those who believe
>>     in the ominscience of God.  They claim that if God truly did know
>>     they were going to wander for 40 years, then why in the world did
>>     God make such an offer to them?  The issue cuts both ways.  Now,
>>     no matter how you cut it, God did this in order to show His glory
>>     and God was not taken off guard, and God purposed it.
>>
>>     Derick
>>
>> Derick, nothing takes God off-guard!  That is why I lean toward God's 
>> foreknowledge and not toward Calvinistic fatalism.  I believe that is 
>> unscriptural but then that is just me!  God is indeed sovereign but I 
>> don't feel that negates His permissive -will when it comes to our 
>> God-given free will.  Believing in the free will of man is not 
>> open-theism.  I just cannot get past the denial of personal 
>> responsibility in Calvinism.  You can say that we are still responsible 
>> but if we propose a belief in God's grace being irresistible then there 
>> can be no personal responsibility.  I am not an open theist but instead I 
>> believe that God, in His sovereignty, gives us the ability to accept or 
>> reject His will.  How God can be sovereign and allow us a choice at the 
>> same time is beyond my understanding.  I think that is why it takes faith 
>> to believe and accept.  Fatalistic resignation requires no faith at all! 
>> */Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!/** *
>> (*Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!*)
>> Pastor David Powell
>>
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