Are you saying you actually looked at the video at the time points I sent and you STILL don't see the pelvic thrusts? Really????? You actually didn't see them? Well, they are there and they were very worldly and inappropriate for a "worship" service. No, not just inappropriate, down right ungodly! DW > DW, > > I will try to make myself perfectly clear ..... I saw NO "dirty dancing" > in the Saddleback youth video. I saw NO "pelvic thrusts" in the > Saddleback youth video. > > I saw youth singing a song of praise to God as they performed steps with > arm and hand motions .... > > Jerry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Warner" <dwarner@...> > To: <pastorsforum@...> > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:33 AM > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? > > >> Jerry L, are you still saying there were no pelvic thrusts in the >> dirty dancing done on the Saddleback video? >> >> DW >> >> >> >> >>> Hey Dean, >>> >>> I appreciate your opinion, but of course, I see the entire issue >>> differently. >>> >>> Her response to a letter asking about dancing was, "Dancing is the >>> vertical expression of a horizontal idea." >>> >>> There is no doubt that some modern dancing is vulgar ... but all >>> dancing is NOT. A movie like "Dirty Dancing" portrays some vulgar >>> dancing. Your quote may be appropriate for some of the dancing shown >>> in that movie, but you cannot accurately generalize and apply it to >>> all dancing, ... nor to the Saddleback youth video. >>> >>> The Saddleback video is not in any way vulgar or suggestive. There >>> is no "dirty dancing" in it at all. As I expressed in another post, >>> one can view the real thing, vulgar dancing, pelvic thrusts, etc, on >>> BET, and easily tell the difference between what these kids did and >>> that which is unclean. >>> >>> Titus 1:15 >>> 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled >>> and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience >>> is defiled. KJV >>> >>> Titus 1:15 >>> 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted >>> and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and >>> consciences are corrupted. NIV >>> >>> Titus 1:15-16 >>> 15 A person who is pure of heart sees goodness and purity in >>> everything; but a person whose own heart is evil and untrusting finds >>> evil in everything, for his dirty mind and rebellious heart color all >>> he sees and hears. TLB >>> >>> It is unfortunate that some people see evil behind every bush. Like >>> the residents of Pleasantville they live a drab, colorless, cold, and >>> lifeless existence. >>> >>> If viewing this Saddleback youth video provoked unclean thoughts in >>> any man, it is not a doctor he needs to see, ... he needs to make an >>> appointment with the cross and allow the Lord Jesus Christ to cleanse >>> his heart and mind. The Bible tells us that the blood of Jesus >>> Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness (1 >>> John 1:7). >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Dean West >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 8:09 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> Jerry, >>> Couldn't help but remember a statement by Ann Landers when I read >>> your >>> comment following: "If you go around preaching that dancing is >>> "sexual foreplay," you will sound like the residents of >>> Pleasantville." >>> >>> >>> Her response to a letter asking about dancing was, "Dancing is the >>> vertical expression of a horizontal idea." >>> >>> >>> >>> I tried to view the video with an objective mind. Its just my >>> opinion and I don't expect you to agree. Any male that can view the >>> video, not see anything suggestive, nor have any thoughts of a >>> suggestive nature probably needs to make an appointment with his >>> doctor. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Jerry <jlew@...> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:22:41 PM >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> No ... I told you previously, ... I do not accept shame from you, >>> ... >>> and you have no business trying to dish it out as a man of God. >>> >>> Be real, David ..... you will make a greater impact for the >>> Gospel. >>> >>> Leave the pet phrases that reek of religiousity alone. They do not >>> help you win people to Christ. >>> >>> If you go around preaching that dancing is "sexual foreplay," you >>> will >>> sound like the residents of Pleasantville. >>> >>> Jerry >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Warner >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:07 PM >>> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> Thank you Jerry. And merry Christmas to you too. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> From: Jerry [mailto:jlew@...] >>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:03 PM >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> Exactly. That usually follows the foreplay of dancing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Attitudes and asinine statements like this make a mockery of the >>> Christians who spout off such silliness. >>> >>> >>> >>> Shame on you for such an undiscerning remark. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: David Warner >>> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> >>> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:12 PM >>> >>> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> Secondly, the people were doing a bit more than dancing. They >>> "rose up to play". >>> >>> "The verb translated 'to play' suggests illicit and immoral >>> sexual >>> activity which normally accompanied fertility rights found among the >>> Canaanites who worshipped the god Baal." >>> >>> >>> >>> Exactly. That usually follows the foreplay of dancing. >>> >>> >>> >>> DW >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> From: J & M [mailto:jim.melissa@...] >>> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:50 AM >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> D.W., >>> >>> >>> >>> If I may make a few exegetical corrections.... >>> >>> >>> >>> The people DID have the command not to worship idols. Exodus >>> 20 >>> records it and they had already agreed to follow the law.Ex 24:3-3 >>> And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all >>> the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, >>> All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. >>> >>> 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early >>> in >>> the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve >>> pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel . >>> >>> >>> >>> After this, Moses goes back up on the mountain for 40 days to >>> get >>> the stone tablets and commune with God: Ex 24:12 And the LORD >>> said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I >>> will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I >>> have written; that thou mayest teach them. >>> >>> Secondly, the people were doing a bit more than dancing. They >>> "rose up to play". >>> >>> "The verb translated 'to play' suggests illicit and immoral >>> sexual >>> activity which normally accompanied fertility rights found among the >>> Canaanites who worshipped the god Baal." >>> >>> >>> Jimbo >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: David Warner >>> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> >>> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:48 AM >>> >>> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> They were just dancing in worship there is Exodus. What¢s >>> wrong >>> with that? The loud noise and the music and the dance steps >>> might not fit your idea of godly worship but how can you say >>> from pre-Exodus revelation that it was sinful. What law did >>> they violate. Remember, Moses had not brought the commandments down >>> from the Mt. yet. So what¢s the big deal. It was just >>> some body moves and kicking up a little sand. After all, but >>> calf was nothing but shaped gold material. Besides, I don¢t >>> see any hint of them doing pelvic thrusts mentioned at all. >>> Non-traditional? Maybe. But sinful? This was just a bunch of >>> people who perhaps even thought they were singing and dancing in >>> praise to the true God. >>> >>> If dancing is alright then it must be alright in all cases, >>> right? >>> >>> >>> >>> DW >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> From: Jerry [mailto:jlew@...] >>> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 6:22 PM >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey DW !!!! >>> >>> >>> >>> You are looking at apples and calling them something entirely >>> different .... like prunes. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dancing around the calf was akin to idolatry ... The Bible >>> very >>> clearly condemns idolatry in specific language.. >>> >>> >>> >>> You are criticizing a youth group who are singing praise to >>> the >>> True and Living God. >>> >>> >>> >>> Non-traditional? YES. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sinful? NO. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> Matt 17:20 ... for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith >>> ... >>> nothing shall be impossible unto you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: David Warner >>> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 8:22 PM >>> >>> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> I don¢t suppose there was anything sinful in the dancing >>> around the golden calf either. NOT! >>> >>> >>> >>> DW >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> From: Jerry [mailto:jlew@...] >>> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 11:43 PM >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff, >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree that sin and evil can wreck people's lives, ... yet >>> that is not what you see in the saddleback video. >>> >>> >>> >>> The song and steps of these youth may not fit your ideas of >>> proper behavior for Christian youth, but there is nothing >>> sinful about what they are doing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Calling the behavior on this video "sinful" will make a >>> laughingstock of the accuser. You will destroy all >>> credibility for the real issues of life. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Bible says that sin is transgression of the law. There >>> is >>> no lawbreaking and no sinful behavior here. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you want to know what a pelvic thrust really looks like, >>> watch a Brittany Spears video. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: Jeff Hallmark >>> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 11:04 AM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> Unless >>> >>> All the water in the world >>> however hard it tried >>> Could never sink a sailing ship >>> unless in get inside. >>> >>> All the evil in the world >>> the wickedness and sin - >>> Can never sink your soul's fair craft >>> unless you let it in. >>> >>> unknown >>> >>> On 12/16/06, Jerry < jlew@...> wrote: >>> >>> I agree with Jimbo. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is not exactly my style .... but I see nothing sexual >>> in >>> this. >>> >>> >>> >>> I question it being called a worship service ... it looks >>> like a performance of a youth group to me. >>> >>> >>> >>> What bothers me is that so many seek to put a bull's eye >>> on >>> Saddleback and criticize everything that occurs there. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey, ... if you don't like the way they do things there, >>> ... >>> pray about it and leave them with God. Let God deal with >>> them. He has the ability to straighten them out if they >>> need it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: J & M >>> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> >>> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:52 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> How much bodily movement is allowed in worship? >>> >>> May people move their hands? Feet? >>> >>> >>> >>> I didn't find this offensive. Lively and >>> youth-oriented, >>> but not sexual or degrading. >>> >>> >>> >>> Like you said, we have diverse opinions here. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jimbo >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: G Schneck >>> >>> To: pastorsforum@... >>> >>> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 7:37 PM >>> >>> Subject: [PastorsForum] Saddleback worship?? >>> >>> >>> >>> From Extreme theology web site: >>> >>> "This is a video of a Saddleback Worship Concert. >>> There >>> are teenage girls doing dance moves that include Pelvic >>> Thrusts.Is this really worship to the one true God of >>> the Bible or is this worship to one of those pagan sex >>> gods? You be the judge?" >>> >>> >>> >>> - - - - >>> >>> My comments >>> >>> I know there is a diverse group here on >>> pastorsforum... >>> >>> When I viewed this I grew sick to my stomach and my >>> heart broke..... >>> >>> greg >>> >>> >>> >>> - - - - >>> >>> The video: >>> >>> >>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1122526581190505259 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... >>> To unsubscribe, send a message to: >>> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.20/588 - >>> Release Date: 12/15/2006 10:02 AM >>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... >>> To unsubscribe, send a message to: >>> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... 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