Thank you DW. Glad you read it through. Pax, sTeve David Warner wrote: > Steve, > As I read through your post I kept thinking, "now here is an honest post." > You spoke of what you saw as he positive and the negative and yet remained > uncommitted about what you had not seen for yourself. Good job brother! > Thanks for posting. I never knew all this. I've been informed. > > D Warner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:18 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Legalism > > I have to agree with both Bill and Mr. Cloud on this .... how's that > again. Yes, they both are right. I have not read RW's PDC or PDL - they > are on a long list of books to read though. But I have read enough > snippets here and there to know that Bill is right when he says that the > PDC is about vision. Many different churches from many different > traditions have used and implemented the 5 purposes - it is not just for > contemporary worshippers (though often that is how many of the churches > do end up going - but certainly not all). > > But on the other hand I believe Mr. Cloud is right when he points out > the unbiblical secrecy and stealth methods that are not only condoned > but encouraged in moving a church to PDC. Before coming to PF I used to > spend a lot of time on RW's website pastors.com - in fact it was on > there that I found out about PF when Brian LaCroix posted about a new > forum he was starting. I am not saying that RW ever said anything or > wrote anything that actually condoned and encouraged these methods ( he > may have but I have not seen it in his own words) but certainly those > who moderate the forums of his pastors forum on his website condone and > encourage such tactics. These methods are also advocated by the author > of the PDC complementary book "Transitions" who frequently posted on the > forum. I could not believe the deception and trickery that was > encouraged to bring about this change. Of course some of the moderators > were just down right mean and nasty people (imho). If someone posted a > question or comment that was even slightly critical - they would be > threatened with expulsion - even if they tried to seek some > clarification they would be just booted and then the moderators and > others would talk about them (post about them) and criticize and make > fun of them when they could no longer defend themselves. Zero love and > compassion. > > And the sad thing was that this was not only the way they acted on the > forum but also in their pulpits and churches. "old guard" and > "traditionalists" were seen as obstacles to be rid of, not live souls in > need of care and love. Now granted - traditionalism - if it truly is > traditionalism is a great evil in the church today - the "we've never > done it this way before" mentality is wrong. However, if you seek to > make a momentous change you have to start with individuals - preaching > and teaching the truth in love - not this "your either with us or > against us" mentality that was so common in these PDC advocates. Yes > there will always be people who get upset about this or that but the > pastor and elders should reach out to them in every possible way to > encourage them - not stomp all over them and belittle them behind their > backs - they are real people not objects to be cast aside. And of course > this is all amplified when the leaders or "core group" are secretly > planning a major overhaul. If it is truly Biblical than it should be > done out in the open - not deceptively trying to win others to your side > or plotting to rid the church of opposition. This is not the Church - > this is politics or business. After seeing this time and time again I > was glad to find an alternate forum for fellowship. Many of those on the > P.com forum (the moderators especially) I have no respect for as > ministers of the gospel or even as men. As someone near and dear to us > might say, "SHAME on them". It truly was awful. > > So the 5 Purpose PDC vision (which may or may not have some merit - I > won't know until I actually read it) should be separated from the way > that many (even the PDC pastors forums) encourage and condone that > vision being implemented. So there I agree with Bill Burns and David Cloud. > > > Pax, > Steve > > Bill burns wrote: > >> *Well, I've been through the purpose drive coarse and in fact taught a >> couple "days" and have read and re-read the book. No where does Warren >> tell a church or person what they should do! How too, but not what too.* >> ** >> *In fact, he talks about individual/churches having uniquiness(sp) and >> that they can serve God in their own particular way. It's called vision.* >> * * >> * >> * >> *Bill >> /David Warner <dwarner@...>/* wrote: >> >> Who told you that?? >> D Warner >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *From:* Bill burns [mailto:burnswh@...] >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:58 AM >> *To:* pastorsforum@... >> *Subject:* RE: [PastorsForum] Legalism >> The Purpose Driven church or purpose driven life have nothing to >> do with what a church or individual does or doesn't do. Has >> nothing to do with how a church should conduct their services. Has >> nothing to do with denominations or Pharisees. >> **But, it does have a lot to do with vision, mission and purpose >> thereof.** >> Bill >> >> */David Warner <dwarner@...>/* wrote: >> >> WERE ALL OUR CHRISTIAN FOREFATHERS PHARISEES? (Friday Church >> News Notes, February 9, 2007, www.wayoflife.org >> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/www.wayoflife.org> >> fbns@... <mailto:fbns@...>, 866-295-4143) >> - The New York Times for January 28 ran an article entitled >> "The First Dance," about the first dance allowed in the >> history of John Brown University last December. For nearly 90 >> years this Christian school, located in Siloam Springs, >> Arkansas, considered dancing a worldly activity and forbade >> it. In the Rick Warren age, though, such taboos are >> old-fashioned, legalistic, even Pharisaical. John Brown >> University was founded in 1919 by a Salvation Army preacher. >> The same thing has happened in recent years at many other >> Christian schools, including Wheaton College, BIOLA, >> Cornerstone University, and Baylor University. When we preach >> against these things today and say that modern dancing is >> worldly we are condemned as legalists and Pharisees. It makes >> me wonder. Were all of our evangelical and fundamentalist >> Christian forefathers Pharisees? >> Fifty years ago the vast majority of them believed the same >> thing on these issues as we believe today. As the New York >> Times observed, "Until last October, dancing had been seen at >> J.B.U. as a gateway to sin." Since it is obvious that modern >> dancing has not gotten godlier in the past 90 years, something >> else must have changed and that something else is the gross >> worldliness of evangelicalism today. To label a >> Bible-believing Christian who has zeal to obey God's Word a >> Pharisee is a slander, because the error of Phariseeism was >> not their zeal to obey the Scripture. They had no such zeal. >> Their central errors were self-righteousness, hypocrisy, >> exalting tradition above Scripture, a gospel of works, and the >> rejection of Jesus Christ. >> ONE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH REFUSES TO GO PURPOSE DRIVEN >> (Friday Church News Notes, February 9, 2007, www.wayoflife.org >> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/www.wayoflife.org> >> fbns@..., 866-295-4143) - The First Baptist Church >> of Daytona Beach, Florida, was being led in Rick Warren's >> Purpose Driven direction by its new pastor David Cox, when >> many of the members stood against the changes and forced Cox >> to resign on January 29. Among other changes, Cox had >> eliminated the bus ministry, built a new rock concert-type >> stage in the auditorium at the cost of $450,000, and >> introduced a rock band for Sunday services. He was teaching >> from Warren's book The Purpose Driven Life. One of the things >> that were effective in the demise of Cox's Purpose Driven goal >> was a document that was distributed among church members >> explaining what was transpiring and where it would lead. >> Though Cox labeled the document "propaganda" and warned that >> the people were being "duped," enough members stood their >> ground that he was forced to resign. Cox had become the senior >> pastor when Bobby Welch retired in August 2006 after 32 years >> at First Baptist. The document that helped force Cox's >> resignation is reprinted in this issue of the Friday Church >> News Notes. Let me hasten to say that the members of First >> Baptist who resisted Cox doubtless had other motives in >> addition to simply stemming the tide of the Purpose Driven >> philosophy. It appears from its web site that this large >> Southern Baptist church uses Contemporary Worship Music in the >> services and rock music in its youth department, so we are not >> saying that there is a consistent rejection of the >> contemporary philosophy in this congregation. >> THE PURPOSE DRIVEN PLAYBOOK FOR CHURCH TAKE OVERS (Friday >> Church News Notes, February 9, 2007, www.wayoflife.org >> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/www.wayoflife.org> >> fbns@... <mailto:fbns@...>, 866-295-4143) >> - The following is excerpted from the blog "Full Court Press >> Against Modernism" and is entitled "Megachurch Pastor Accuses >> Some Congregation Members of Being Duped," January 29, 2007. >> It was prepared with the assistance of research by the >> Southwest Radio Church of Bethany, Oklahoma: "In the past ten >> years a lot of churches in America and in other countries have >> changed from a traditional New Testament church model to a >> contemporary Purpose Driven model, most with sorrowful pitiful >> results. Thousands of churches have split, closed, or had >> significant reductions in attendance. Most churches, after >> having a brief upsurge in growth, either reverted back to >> their original size or suffered church trauma by introducing >> the PDC model in their congregation. It is important that >> EVERY church member know if their church is targeted for a >> PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH (PDC) takeover. Initially a small clique >> of church staff including the pastor plans the change without >> telling the rest of the church membership. Church Transitions >> (a PDC training arm) trains the clique initiating the change >> in eight steps. The church is not to be informed of the >> transitions until the fourth step. After the sixth step if >> there are some members in the church who voice concerns the >> following is suggested: #1- Identify those who are resisting >> the changes. #2- Assess the effectiveness of their opposition. >> #3- Befriend those who are undecided about changes. #4- >> Marginalize more persistent resisters or questioners. #5- >> Vilify those who stay and fight. #6- Establish new rules that >> will silence all resistance. Then the members either accept >> the changes or leave the church. Rick Warren, author and >> director of the PDC movement, says, 'When you reveal the >> vision to the church the old pillars are going to leave. >> But let them leave ... they only hold things up.' So what are >> the signs that your church is targeted for a PDC change? #1- >> Change in music to a contemporary rock style. #2- Removal of >> hymn books...often words on a screen. #3- Eliminating the >> choir or introducing a choral 'entertainment type' singing >> group. Repetitive praise lyrics are used. #4- Replacing the >> organ/piano with rock music type instruments. >> #5- Dressing down to casual informal attire. #8- A repetitive >> 40 day PDC study program stressing psychological relationships >> with each other, the community and the world. #10- Sunday >> morning, evening, and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed >> to other times, named differently or eliminated. #14- New >> versions of the Bible are used. >> #16- The decor may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to >> the 'former church.' #17- The name 'church' is often removed >> and may be called a 'campus.' Denominational names are often >> removed. #18- An emphasis on more fun and party times for the >> youth. #19- Elimination of altar calls or salvation >> invitations. #20- The elimination of such words as 'unsaved,' >> 'lost,' 'hell, and 'sodomy.' #21- Reclassification of the >> saved and lost to the 'churched' and 'unchurched' #22- The >> marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not avid promoters >> of the new PDC program." >> D Warner >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *From:* Dpowellaz2@... [mailto:Dpowellaz2@...] >> *Sent:* Friday, February 09, 2007 9:31 AM >> *To:* pastorsforum@... >> *Subject:* [PastorsForum] Legalism >> *Don't let legalism kill your joy in ministry* >> by Rick Warren >> /<HR/ >> >> >> > > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pastor Steven G. Rockhill Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church PO Box 88 Lisbon, NY 13658 315-393-9041 revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++