Yes, forgiveness is of great value. However, we are not speaking about
forgiveness. Allow me to illustrate; say I am a wood worker and I have a
beautiful piece of red oak timber that I will choose to be the center in a
table I am making. I cut it, plane it, and sand it smooth. I then put nice
stain on it and then seal it with the proper sealer. What I have is a very
beautiful and flawless piece of wood. I then take a rail road spike and
drive it in the center of that piece of wood. Realizing what I have done I
soon remove the spike. I have marred the wood, and since it is marred it
cannot be used as I first wanted to use it. I can find another place to use
it, but because of the condition of the wood I cannot use it in the center
of the table.
Point; I pulled the spike out of the wood, however the hole is still there.
The spike is the sin, the hole is the consequence. God can remove the sin
by forgiveness, but the consequence remains.
I know this can illustrate all sin. But, I believe that some sin, although
forgiven, carry greater consequences than others.
Mike Cantrell
----- Original Message -----
From: "john okeefe" <jxpxus@...>
To: <pastorsforum@...>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Divorced Pastors
> dude - humm, so forgiveness is something that has no
> value - go figure :)
>
> pax
> jok
>
> --- Mike Cantrell <mcantrell@...> wrote:
> > Did Jonah's sin affect the mariners?
> >
> > Mike Cantrell
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "john okeefe" <jxpxus@...>
> > To: <pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Divorced Pastors
> >
> >
> > > so for you then, the sin of others effect those
> > who
> > > have not committed the sin?
> > >
> > > pax
> > > jok
> > >
> > > --- Mike Cantrell <mcantrell@...> wrote:
> > > > I don't see the over educated part (not an
> > attack)
> > > > and no, according to
> > > > "my truth" in no case can a divorced person be a
> > > > pastor.
> > > >
> > > > Mike Cantrell
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "john okeefe" <jxpxus@...>
> > > > To: <pastorsforum@...>
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:46 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Divorced Pastors
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > mike-
> > > > >
> > > > > cool - and i take the "truth"(not absolute
> > truth
> > > > :) )
> > > > > that it was not directed at me :) but given
> > that
> > > > i am
> > > > > the only divorced,ordained, over educated
> > pastor
> > > > on
> > > > > the block - you can see where i would be
> > confused
> > > > :)
> > > > >
> > > > > so, you would say that in some cases it would
> > be
> > > > ok
> > > > > for a divorced person to be a pastor?
> > > > >
> > > > > pax
> > > > > jok
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Mike Cantrell <mcantrell@...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > John, if you read my post for what I said
> > > > instead of
> > > > > > argument,you will find
> > > > > > that I said "few" and "most"
> > > > > > The post was not directed at you personally.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike Cantrell
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "john okeefe" <jxpxus@...>
> > > > > > To: <pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:23 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Divorced Pastors
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > mike,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i haveto say you are just so wrong :) i
> > was
> > > > going
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > blast you - but then realiezed that my
> > > > reastion to
> > > > > > > your words need not be hurtful - we
> > disagree,
> > > > but
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > truly need to reread your words and see
> > how
> > > > they
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > not make sense -
> > > > > > > you mention that "in your opinion most" -
> > > > well, i
> > > > > > am
> > > > > > > not in that "most" - the "cause of the
> > divoce"
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > up fopr public debate - but i was not in
> > > > faulst -
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > all - but then in your mind i need to be
> > > > punished
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > the sins of another :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pax
> > > > > > > jok
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- Mike Cantrell <mcantrell@...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > I am one of those who believe that a
> > divorce
> > > > man
> > > > > > > > should not be pastor of a church.
> > However,
> > > > I
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > not believe that it cancels out God's
> > > > calling on
> > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > life. A man whom God has called "into
> > the
> > > > > > Gospel
> > > > > > > > Ministry" has other avenues to express
> > his
> > > > > > calling.
> > > > > > > > It is my belief based on the scriptures
> > > > given in
> > > > > > > > this forum that a divorced man simply
> > has
> > > > not
> > > > > > "taken
> > > > > > > > care of his household." Most divorces,
> > and
> > > > I
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > counseled many going through this
> > terrible
> > > > > > ordeal,
> > > > > > > > are the fault of BOTH parties. Very few
> > are
> > > > > > caused
> > > > > > > > by only one mate. If a man or woman
> > pays
> > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > to the home front and cleaves to and
> > > > cherishes
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > mate like scripture tells us to, then
> > most
> > > > > > divorces
> > > > > > > > would not happen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike Cantrell
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: Charlie Carroll Jr.
> > > > > > > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 10:54
> > AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Women
> > > > Preachers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If a preacher is divorced he most
> > > > definitely
> > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > the pain that divorce comes with. Also
> > the
> > > > > > stigma
> > > > > > > > that precedes it. Again I wonder if all
> > > > > > preachers
> > > > > > > > comply with all the conditions that Paul
> > > > speaks
> > > > > > > > about in 1 Timothy, is divorce more
> > > > important
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > any other condition. How about patient,
> > > > > > hospitable.
> > > > > > > > Would you quit preaching because you
> > are
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > patient. My brother asked how can you
> > > > counsel
> > > > > > > > someone about staying faithful to one
> > wife
> > > > if
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are divorced. Now I am not saying that
> > you
> > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > be divorced to talk about divorce. But
> > a
> > > > > > divorced
> > > > > > > > person can tell you first hand what
> > happens
> > > > how
> > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > pain you feel how alone you feel. You
> > see I
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > what happens when you fail in a marriage
> > I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > > > want anyone to go through divorce. Yes I
> > am
> > > > > > divorced
> > > > > > > > and I still don't believe in it. Again
> > > > would
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > want anybody to go through it. But God
> > > > still
> > > > > > uses
> > > > > > > > me, and when He tells me (and believe me
> > He
> > > > will
> > > > > > let
> > > > > > > > me know ) to stop preaching I will stop.
> > > > > > Because
> > > > > > > > not being in God's will is the worst
> > > > possible
> > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > to be. I know a lot of you will have a
> > lot
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > criticism for me, but I had rather do
> > what
> > > > God
> > > > > > > > called me to do than what man tells me.
> > > > > > Sometimes it
> > > > > > > > would be so much easier to just quit
> > rather
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > have to listen to so much criticism. But
> > > > that's
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > I remember the cross and what my Jesus
> > did
> > > > for
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > > > and it seems to make it a little easier.
> > I
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > heard this said "the Christian army is
> > the
> > > > only
> > > > > > army
> > > > > > > > that shoots their wounded" maybe we
> > ought
> > > > to
> > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > reaching our hands out to lift someone
> > up
> > > > rather
> > > > > > > > than push them back down.
> > > > > > > > Here because of Jesus
> > > > > > > > Charlie
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: Warren Webster
> > > > > > > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 3:18
> > PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Women
> > > > Preachers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your bible must read differently
> > than
> > > > mine.
> > > > > > For
> > > > > > > > the life of me, I cannot find where she
> > was
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > Deacon--it does NOT say that! Being a
> > > > servant
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > not make you a deacon--have met a few in
> > my
> > > > > > lifetime
> > > > > > > > who for sure were not servants!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have noticed that everyone that
> > says
> > > > that
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > Timothy 3:12 does not refer just having
> > one
> > > > > > wife,
> > > > > > > > are almost always without exception
> > divorced
> > > > > > > > themselves. An interesting thot, how do
> > you
> > > > > > counsel
> > > > > > > > with someone about divorce and staying
> > > > faithful
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > one wife when you are divorced?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Women are certainly not second class
> > > > > > citizens
> > > > > > > > and without them it would be impossible
> > to
> > > > run a
> > > > > > > > church, but contrarywise, God never
> > called
> > > > them
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > preach and/or be deacons. I do not
> > think
> > > > that
> > > > > > it is
> > > > > > > > too difficult to understand what is very
> > > > plain
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the Scriptures. By the way, women are
> > > > happiest
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > they are in subjection to a man who
> > takes
> > > > care
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > them and protects them and loves them
> > and
> > > > treats
> > > > > > > > them as the Queen of the home.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have a good day.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Warren D. Webster
> > > > > > > > Ind. Baptist Preacher in Japan
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: J
> > > > > > > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004
> > 2:10
> > > > AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Women
> > > > > > Preachers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Brother Cecil,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please do not tear the page with
> > > > Romans
> > > > > > 16:1
> > > > > > > > out of your Bible. It is still the Word
> > of
> > > > God
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > declares a WOMAN, Phoebe, was a DEACON
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > church. 2 Tim. 3 12 MUST be interpreted
> > in
> > > > > > light of
> > > > > > > > Romans 16:1. Paul was not contradicting
> > > > > > himself.
> > > > > > > > The meaning of 2 Tim 3:12 has to be in
> > > > regard to
> > > > > > > > plural marriage and not divorce and
> > > > remarriage
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > even that only a married man can be a
> > > > deacon.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jerry L.
> > > > > > > > Southside Baptist
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: Cecil Tiller
> > > > > > > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 05,
> > 2004
> > > > 4:09
> > > > > > PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum]
> > Women
> > > > > > Preachers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You must have a "problem"
> > > > interpreting 2
> > > > > > > > Tim.3:1,12
> > > > > > > > "If a man...", vs 12 "Let the
> > > > deacons be
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > husbands of one wife....."
> > > > > > > > Cecil
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *****************
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > john okeefe <jxpxus@...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > jerry -
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i have zero problem with a
> > women
> > > > > > pastor :)
> > > > > > > > i think
> > > > > > > > God calls heart, not gender :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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