Gary,
I understand sovereignty as your second sentence explains it. We just
disagree on how much authority and sovereignty God has given to man. I see
God as giving man "Supreme, undisputable authority or autonomy" to say,
"Yes, No, Maybe." He also allows us {Christians} to maintain the ability to
say "Yes" to sin or "No" to sin. He allows us to make supreme decisions
about Satan. He warns Christians in 1Peter 5:8, "Be self-controlled and
alert." Why does God warn us {Christians} about the devil who is roaming
around looking for someone {Christians} to devour? The words in verse 9
make it very clear that Christians have the sovereign will to either
"resist" Satan or not "resist" Satan. How do we know that? We know that
because of the warning He gave us. There is NO NEED for a warning if we
didn't have sovereign will to heed it or not.
Thank you for challenging me and make me stretch the old gray matter.
MAKE IT A GREAT DAY.
jerry k
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Webb" <mgwebb@...>
To: <pastorsforum@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
> Check up on your definition of sovereignty. It refers to supreme,
> undisputable authority or autonomy. There is no question that God gave
> Adam and Eve some options as well as giving them commands regarding those
> options. He has done the same with us. However, those who are
> regenerated have some advantages over Adam or Eve. We now have a new
> nature and God's Spirit within us. We have actually experienced the
> dreadful immediate consequences of sin and the immediate refreshing of
> pardon and fellowship with Him. We have agonized in the bondage of sin
> and then experienced the joyous liberty we now have in Christ. We have a
> choice, the choice that God has presented to us: life or death, Christ or
> Satan, heaven or hell. For those of us who know Him, the choice exists,
> but it is clear which one is preferrable.
>
> GARY WEBB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Krewson" <krewfam@...>
> To: <pastorsforum@...>
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 1:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>
>
>> Gary,
>> Those are nice words, but not biblically accurate. If man had no soverign
>> will what went wrong in the garden. God told Adam and Eve, "...you must
>> not eat...." God is giving a direct command, but Adam and Eve make a
>> choice and eat. God gave them soverign choice.
>>
>> In Acts 2:37, the people asked Peter, "...what shall we do? Peter
>> replied, Repent...." Peter's reply has all the earmarks of choice. If
>> they didn't have a choice, Peter might have said something like: "You
>> don't have to do anything. God chose you, and that settles it." In verse
>> 40, Peter then tells them, "Save yourselves from this untoward
>> generation."
>>
>> I will stand on God's Words.
>> jerry k
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Gary Webb" <mgwebb@...>
>> To: <pastorsforum@...>
>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>>
>>
>>> Man has NO sovereign ability at all. There is but One Sovereign Being,
>>> the Lord God. Man's "free" will is always limited to the choices
>>> available to him. His choices are not infinite. In fact, his choices
>>> have been chosen for him by the One who is Sovereign. Even then, his
>>> choices are not free from consequences beyond his own control.
>>>
>>> Before regeneration, man is in bondage. Have you ever considered the
>>> fact that those in bondage are not free? Man's sinful nature disposes
>>> him toward sinful choices, though some parade themselves as
>>> righteousness.
>>>
>>> No one will arrive in heaven kicking and screaming because they have no
>>> desire to be there. Neither will anyone in hell be able to protest that
>>> they deserve better. God will not be surprised by any who will arrive
>>> in heaven, nor will He be perplexed that someone He expected is missing.
>>>
>>> The ways of God in salvation are truly mysterious and wonderful. Like a
>>> bridegroom courting the bride, He woos the souls of men to Himself.
>>> Unquestionably, He is worthy of the greatest love and devotion anyone
>>> could offer, but sinful men do not find holiness attractive. Until He
>>> grants them repentance unto life, they choose what pleases them most:
>>> sin. Afterwards, they choose Him as their righteousness, wisdom, and
>>> sanctification. Why do they make such a choice, because they once were
>>> blind, but now they see. You see, blind men have limited choices
>>> compared to those who see. Choices that a seeing person would find
>>> unthinkable might be the normal course for someone without sight.
>>>
>>> Those who come to faith in Christ (the only evidence of eternal life),
>>> are born again. This is a totally new spiritual condition. There is a
>>> radical change in their disposition toward God, toward sin, and toward
>>> righteousness. As partakers of His divine nature, they find delight in
>>> Him. Could they turn away? Could they cease to believe? Is this a
>>> hypothetical question about the powers of regenerate human nature, or
>>> about a more realistic issue of choice. God truly is sovereign. He is
>>> also both eternal and omnipotent. Being omnipotent, He would have the
>>> power to change His own nature, perhaps even His eternality, but that
>>> would be contrary to His nature because He is also immutable.
>>>
>>> As a believer in Jesus Christ, I now have a new nature. It is evidenced
>>> in many ways, but one of its characteristics is disposition to follow
>>> Him. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"
>>> (Romans 8:14). I now belong to Him, preeminently by His choice, but
>>> contingently by my own. I am my Beloveds, and He is mine. Is something
>>> about Him going to so change that I will be disappointed with Him? Are
>>> His rewards so trivial that I would cast them aside as worthless? I
>>> don't think so.
>>>
>>>
>>> GARY WEBB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steven G. Rockhill" <revrock@...>
>>> To: <pastorsforum@...>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>>>
>>>
>>>> If a person has the free will to choose salvation in Christ, then
>>>> _*they must*_ by virtue of the nature of their free will have the
>>>> ability to unchoose salvation in Christ. Does God take away their free
>>>> will once they become saved? Does God keep someone saved, kicking and
>>>> screaming against their will? I think not. If man has the sovereign
>>>> ability to choose Christ while he is a sinner, then he must also retain
>>>> that sovereign ability once he is saved and have the sovereign ability
>>>> to unchoose Christ. Certainly God's sovereignty cannot overrule man's,
>>>> can it?
>>>>
>>>> Peace,
>>>> Steve O:-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gary Webb wrote:
>>>>> Are you saying that someone who is truly born again, a partaker of the
>>>>> divine nature, a new creature, a saint rather than a sinner, would
>>>>> actually WILL to reject Christ? How unthinkable! I'll grant that
>>>>> some have a false assurance of salvation without actually having
>>>>> become new in Christ, but that's not what was asked. Someone who is
>>>>> genuinely saved has passed from death unto life, from darkness into
>>>>> the marvelous light of God's own Son.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From another perspective, does Christ unknow someone? Does He know
>>>>>> them
>>>>> (intimately as one of His own), then unknow them? Do those who are
>>>>> elect according to the foreknowledge of God become non-elect?
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, looking at a related issue, there are those who "for a while
>>>>> believe" (Luke 8:13). The parable leaves no indication that these are
>>>>> any more saved than those by the way side (Luke 8:12). A faith that
>>>>> doesn't endure under the various tests of faith should cause alarm.
>>>>> It is an indication of the need for regeneration, not just a minor
>>>>> incident to be overlooked.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> GARY WEBB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven G. Rockhill"
>>>>> <revrock@...>
>>>>> To: <pastorsforum@...>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> They must, otherwise they would be held against their will!
>>>>>> Oh wait I wasn't supposed to respond was I .... oops sorry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peace,
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Derick Dickens wrote:
>>>>>>> I am curious on where our non-reformed brethren stand on this issue.
>>>>>>> Does a person have free will to unchoose Christ after choosing
>>>>>>> Christ? What say ye?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Derick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@...
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>>>>>> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>>>>>> PO Box 88
>>>>>> Lisbon, NY 13658
>>>>>> 315-393-9041
>>>>>> revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com
>>>>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@...
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> 4/12/2007 7:58 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>>>> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>>>> PO Box 88
>>>> Lisbon, NY 13658
>>>> 315-393-9041
>>>> revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com
>>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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