Gary, I appreciate the way you clearly and succinctly speak (and write) the truth. What a great gift God has given you. Peace, Steve Gary Webb wrote: > I too think of some balances, but I don't apparently see it the same > way as you do. I see God as the Initiator and Finisher of our > salvatrion. I do not see a contradiction when God holds man > accountable for his choices, even when He knows that a man is already > predisposed against the choice that would bring life. The offer is > still extended and is still genuine because God has already paid the > price to make it so. I also do not see God as being obligated to > anyone. His grace has already given us all more than we deserve. He > is not obligated to forgive the sins of anyone, but through Christ He > has paid a price sufficient to atone for every one. He is not > obligated to reveal the good news of Christ to anyone, but He has > revealed it to many who have continued to reject Him. Of those, He > has patiently, mercifully, and powerfully revealed His love and grace > to such degree that all objections and barriers are removed. I fear > giving glory to sinful men that belongs to God alone. I fear giving > praise to the saints as if they have merit above those who are lost. > We are no better than they. I end up honoring God's sovereignty above > man's virtue, but not above man's accountability. > > > GARY WEBB > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jerry <mailto:jlew@...> > *To:* pastorsforum@... <mailto:pastorsforum@...> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:30 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PastorsForum] Institutes, Book III, Chapter XXI, > secton 5 > > Gary, > > Why on earth do you accept Camping as representative of Calvinism? > > I think Mr Camping would be considered by some as a > "Hyper-Calvinist," ... but I really do not know where the lines > are drawn between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. Camping > definitely holds to reformed theology, but perhaps he carries > reformed theology to the extreme in the opinion of some. Even so, > it is still "Calvinism," and I hear him propagate many of the same > ideas and positions held by some on this forum. > > And, .... in addition to his Calvinistic beliefs, Mr Camping holds > to other, weird, and IMO, aberrant beliefs, such as his view of > the church being abandoned by God and totally controlled by Satan. > > I would probably be condemned as a Calvinist by those who exalt > human sovereignty .... > > I do not think that I "exalt human sovereignty" .... nor do I > condemn those who hold to reformed theology, ... though I strongly > disagree with it. I also strongly disagree with those who hold to > Arminian theology and Universalism. I see error in all three > theological systems. > > I believe that Calvinism over-emphasizes God's sovereignty and > totally neglects man's responsibility and free will. I see that > there is a balance between the two. > > Deut 30:19-20 > 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I > have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: > therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: > 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest > obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is > thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in > the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to > Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. > KJV > Josh 24:15 > 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this > day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served > that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the > Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we > will serve the LORD. > KJV > Life and blessing hinges on man's /choice/ and not destiny. > > Jerry > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Gary Webb <mailto:mgwebb@...> > *To:* pastorsforum@... > <mailto:pastorsforum@...> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PastorsForum] Institutes, Book III, Chapter > XXI, secton 5 > > Why on earth do you accept Camping as representative of > Calvinism? I would probably be condemned as a Calvinist by > those who exalt human sovereignty, but I haven't read enough > of him (or ever listened to Camping) to fit that mold. I do > see Scripture as emphasizing the choice of the Lord more than > the choice of His enemies, but that shouldn't force me to > accept a label. > > GARY > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jerry <mailto:jlew@...> > *To:* pastorsforum@... > <mailto:pastorsforum@...> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 28, 2007 3:48 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PastorsForum] Institutes, Book III, > Chapter XXI, secton 5 > > > So what is your understanding to John Calvin's statement. ???? > > Unmitigated rotgut. > > Can the above be justified by scripture? > > Absolutely not! > > Election is a group or class action and does not involve > the individual being predestined to salvation or damnation. > > There is no Scriptural passage that states that any > individual is predestined to salvation or to spend > eternity in the fires of hell. > > God planned and foreordained that His Church, the > "called-out ones," would make up that body of believers, > ... and they (the Church) are the elect of God. > > There is no example in the Bible of any /individual /being > foreordained to salvation or to damnation. > > People are saved because they make a choice to repent and > believe the Gospel. > > People are in hell because they did not repent and believe > the Gospel. > > > The Bible repeatedly states that God is not a respecter of > persons .... that He does not show favoritism ... > Rom 2:11KJV > 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. > Rom 2:11NIV > 11 For God does not show favoritism. > > No one is predestined to be saved, except as he chooses, > of his own free will, to repent of sin and trust Christ > for salvation. > > No one is predestined to go to hell. Christ died for the > sins of the whole world. God is not willing that any > should perish. Salvation is freely offered to "whosoever > will." > > Reformed theology teaches that some people do not have any > chance at all to be saved and to go to heaven. Since they > are predestined to hell, they cannot believe, and God is > responsible for their inability to be saved. That means > that "whosoever will" CANNOT apply unto them. > > Calvinism is a man-made philosophy. > > When I listen to H Camping on the radio, a self professed > Calvinist, and hear him talk about Calvinism and > salvation, .... I weep. It grieves my heart because of > the way he misleads people in telling them they cannot > know that they are saved and that all they can do is read > the Bible and hope .... and that if they are "the elect" > that God will save them and there is nothing they can do > to come to Christ. (I do understand that Mr Camping's > "brand" of Calvinism varies somewhat from that of some of > the brethren on PF.) > > The nation of Israel is God's "elect." > The Church is God's "elect." > > When individuals choose to repent and believe the gospel, > they are regenerated and become part of the family of God > and are the "elect." > > 1 Tim 2:3-6 KJV > 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our > Saviour; > 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the > knowledge of the truth. > 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and > men, the man Christ Jesus; > 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in > due time. > 1Ti 2:3-6 NLT > 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, > 4 for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the > truth. > 5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can > reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus. > 6 He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This > is the message that God gave to the world at the proper time. > > Jerry > PS: There are so many worthy topics for discussion, ... > do we need to revisit Calvinism again and again and again???? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jeff Hallmark <mailto:bctexan@...> > *To:* pastorsforum@... > <mailto:pastorsforum@...> > *Cc:* OpenPastorsForum@... > <mailto:OpenPastorsForum@...> > *Sent:* Friday, April 27, 2007 6:18 PM > *Subject:* [PastorsForum] Institutes, Book III, > Chapter XXI, secton 5 > > "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by > which He has determined in Himself, what would have to > become of every individual of mankind. For they are > not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal > life is foreordained for some and eternal death for > others. Every man, therefore, being created fro one or > the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated > either to life or to death" John Calvin > > > So what is your understanding to John Calvin's statement. > > > > Can the above be justified by scripture? > > > -- > Bro. Jeff Hallmark > www.sprucelandbaptist.com > <http://www.sprucelandbaptist.com> > http://baptist-potluck.blogspot.com/ > > > = > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubs= > cribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/778 - Release > Date: 4/27/2007 1:39 PM > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. > It has removed 315 spam emails to date. > Paying users do not have this message in their emails. > Try SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> for free now! > > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubs > cribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > = > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubs= > cribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/778 - Release Date: > 4/27/2007 1:39 PM > > > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubs > cribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pastor Steven G. Rockhill Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church PO Box 88 Lisbon, NY 13658 315-393-9041 revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++