Kev, >>>>You've gone to the wrong churches then. I invite you to attend Clifton >>>>Baptist Church any time you are in Louisville. Go to CapitolHill >>>>Baptist church in Wash. DC. Go to Bethlehem Baptist Church >>>>inMinneapolis. Go to Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church in Lisbon, NY. Are you claiming that these Reformed churches offer invitations for lost people to receive Christ in their worship services???? >>>Who is Paul talking about in Romans 9? "His brothers, his kinsmen" >>>(v.3). Paul is talking about the nation of Israel as a group, being the "elect" of God. There is no individual spoken of as being elected to salvation and no individual spoken of as being reprobated to hell. The examples Paul uses deal with the nation and the progression through Abraham's seed and do not establish that any individual is elected to personal salvation while others are not. >>>Look at the pronouns used by Paul to describe our election in Ephesians: Paul is speaking of the Body of Christ, the Church, and not individuals. I am part of that same group. >>>>You chose Him because He chose you first. You would never have chosen >>>>Christ on your own. Even you admit that by saying "faith came into my >>>>heart." If faith came to you then God must have given it to you before >>>>you received it. Of course He chose me. He called me through the gospel. He commands all men everywhere to repent, but some do not respond with faith to the call of God. He convicted me of my sins and my need of Him. People prayed for me and God moved in my heart and life. When I was presented with the gospel, faith came, and I acted on that faith and trusted Christ as my Savior. I believe God gives faith to everyone who hears His Word and takes heed of it with an open heart. >>>You see, you're a Calvinist at heart! "God moved in my life," I couldn't >>>have said it better. It always amazes me when I hear Arminians pray for >>>the salvation of unbelievers. They always pray "Lord break through his >>>rebellious heart." or "Lord, give him faith to believe the gospel." >>>Those are Calvinist prayers and they are biblical. Excuse me???? I am a Biblicist at heart, ... and in no wise Calvinist, Arminian, or Universalist. I reject all three theological systems as being erroneous, man-devised, systems that have some truth but many anomalies. Excuse me 2 ????? Who are you calling "Armimians"???? It was Spirit-filled Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists who prayed for me and witnessed to me. I do not think any of them were theologically educated. I know they were not. Most all of them were high school or college students. None of them had any cemetary training. :-) Excuse me 3????? I have never discovered and prayers in the Bible that are called "Calvinist prayers" ..... Are they in Galatians or the epistle of James???? You did say "Biblical," ... right???? Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Sigafoos" <ksigafoos@...> To: <pastorsforum@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Happy Birthday John!!!! > On 7/11/07, Jerry <jlew@...> wrote: >> >> That is not what I said. I said, "Why is it that Calvinistic churches, >> like >> Presbyterians, and other high >> churches, never give invitations or alter calls?" Sure it is a general >> statement. But no, it was not an insult. It was an observation based on >> my >> personal experience and my impressions gathered from conversations with >> Presbyterians, Lutherans, and others, and also upon my reading. >> > > OK. I'm sorry if I overreacted. If by "high church" you mean > liturgical, mainline, non-evangelical churches, then you answer is > implied in the question. Dead churches do not give invitations > because they are dead. They ceased to believe in the saving power of > Christ long ago and so there is nothing to invite the unbeliever to > believe in. Dead churches are found among Calvinist and Arminian > churches equally (as your example of the dead UMC church testifies). > >> Sure there are exceptions (Like Dr Kennedy), but I cannot remember an >> invitation in any of the Presbyterian or Lutheran services I have >> attended. > > You've gone to the wrong churches then. I invite you to attend > Clifton Baptist Church any time you are in Louisville. Go to Capitol > Hill Baptist church in Wash. DC. Go to Bethlehem Baptist Church in > Minneapolis. Go to Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church in Lisbon, NY. > >> No. We a re not saying the same things. At least I do not think so. I >> am saying that "the Church" was predestined as the "Elect," and not the >> individual. > > Show me where the elect is corporate and not individual. Who is Paul > talking about in Romans 9? "His brothers, his kinsmen" (v.3). They > were his friends, his teachers, his relatives, his schoolmates. They > were individuals and they are "accursed" and "cut off" from Christ. > Would Paul have "great sorrow and unceasing anguish" of heart for > people in general or people in particular? > > How does Paul defend the doctrine of unconditional election? He gives > examples from the Old Testament of Isaac (not Ishmael), Jacob (not > Esau), Moses and Pharaoh. Individuals! > > Look at the pronouns used by Paul to describe our election in Ephesians: > > Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has > blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly > places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, > that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he > predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to > the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with > which he has blessed us in the Beloved. > (Eph 1:3-6 ESV) > > Paul uses "us," "our," and "we." All personal pronouns. "He > predestined us," a personal group known to God before the foundation > of the world and not a nameless, faceless generic group. "The Lord > knows those who are his." (2 Tim 2:19) > >> I chose to receive the Savior because the gospel was presented >> to me by a living witness who encouraged me to receive Christ as my >> Savior. >> Faith came into my heart as I heard the gospel because faith comes by >> hearing and hearing by the Word of God. > > You chose Him because He chose you first. You would never have chosen > Christ on your own. Even you admit that by saying "faith came into my > heart." If faith came to you then God must have given it to you > before you received it. > >> I believed because God moved in my life when Charismatic Methodists, >> Baptists, and Presbyterians prayed and interceded for my salvation. > > You see, you're a Calvinist at heart! "God moved in my life," I > couldn't have said it better. It always amazes me when I hear > Arminians pray for the salvation of unbelievers. They always pray > "Lord break through his rebellious heart." or "Lord, give him faith to > believe the gospel." Those are Calvinist prayers and they are > biblical. I have never once heard anyone pray "Lord, there's really > nothing for you to do until Joe makes up his own mind and decides to > give you a try. But hang around just in case." > > -- > > Grace and peace, > Kevin Sigafoos > --------------------- > For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be > glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36) > > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > >