funny - i am not sure i read, "and the gates of hell will not close my church, but poor giving is far more powerful then satan and the power of the spirit." but then again, i read one of those "modern translations" :) pax jok --- Lee A <leea@...> wrote: > I believe that Bro. Joe said on Pastor Mail that his > church had shut it's doors because so few were > willing to Tithe (give). To many are afraid to > Preach / Teach / or even talk about giving whatever > name you want to give it. > > Here is my personal testimony regarding > Tithing/Grace Giving: (Please read it through before > you turn it off and disregard it) > > > > Tithing is an area where I struggled for many years > until I realized the truth about "Tithing". Tithing > is a universal principle not restricted to a > particular covenant, one that relates to each of the > major administrations of God as He has worked with > people through the centuries beginning well before > the law was given. Tithing applies to all Christians > today. God defines the basics of how we are to > worship Him, and honoring Him with a portion of the > increase He gives us is clearly a part of the > worship He commands. > > I agree that we are not under commandment of the Law > to Tithe (especially since it was required by God > before he gave the Law) but what better principle to > use than that commanded by God, to find a starting > place for New Testament Grace Giving (I didn't say > Tithe). Actually, New Testament Grace Giving is > even MORE DEMANDING than that required by the old > Covenant of the Law. Even though no dogmatic nor > enumerated requirements are given in the New > Testament for Tithing, The New Testament bases > principles of Christian stewardship upon giving and > love, which are, in fact, higher standards and far > more exacting than a strict percentage given under > the old covenant. Jesus Himself clearly upheld the > practice of tithing. "Woe to you, scribes and > Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and > anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier > matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. > These you ought to have done, without leaving the > other things undone" (Matthew 23:23). > > > Only days before His death Christ plainly confirmed > that tithing should indeed be practiced, along with > sincere adherence to the "weightier" spiritual > matters the scribes and Pharisees were obviously > neglecting. The New Testament does not release us > from tithing - in fact, we are told that we are > bought with a price, and Jesus owns all of us. Not > just a tithe of our increase, as under the old > covenant. Instead, now, He owns us - all of us -- > our time, talents, and our treasures. Loving and > giving are morally superior and more spiritually > demanding, convicting, and compelling than are mere > percentages and calculations. Christians are told in > the New Testament to give willingly, out of a > cheerful heart, according to how God has blessed us, > etc. etc. Giving for the Christian comes from a > cheerful heart. > > > > Our faith to tithe is founded in the realization > that God owns everything, including ourselves, and > that we recognize Him as both our Creator and the > great Giver of all good things. In giving back to > God a tenth of our income, we enter into a special > relationship with our Creator and owner. We dedicate > ourselves to serving Him and financially supporting > Christ's commission to preach the gospel and nourish > the Church. In return He promises to bless us. > Tithing, then, is an intensely personal matter > between you and God, a way of demonstrating the > depth of your commitment to, and relationship with, > God. God devised the practice of tithing so we could > learn to give of our possessions to further His > interests here on earth. By tithing we express > appreciation to God in a small but tangible way for > the abundance of His possessions that He allows us > to use for our material benefit. Finally, we learn > to become, as He is, a giver of what we own for the > benefit of others. > > > > Tithing is the opposite of a selfish approach to > life. God stands prepared to support this generous > approach by, in turn, blessing us in a variety of > ways. He invites all to take Him up on His promise: > Mal 3:10"Bring ye all the tithes into the > storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, > and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, > if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and > pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be > room enough to receive it." > > > > God has convinced me that a Tithe is only the > beginning point of the "Grace Giving" that is > expected of a Christian. > > When My wife and I began to faithfully tithe, of the > first fruits, not because we were commanded to but > because we felt led by the Holy Spirit in that area, > God began to change our hearts regarding money. He > changed things that, if I told you, most would not > believe. He also changed our willingness to give > beyond the Tithe. In addition to our Tithes we began > giving offerings to the ministries and works of the > church and as we did God showed us his bounty and > increased our faith. After the blessings (many more > than just the material ones) which flowed from the > giving of our Offerings over and above our Tithe, > our faith was increased in God's ability to give > through us. We then began to give what we thought > would be sacrificially, above what we were already > doing, to Missions through Faith Missions giving. We > allowed the Holy Spirit to direct us in what He > would have us give and I can tell you now, that > after 9 years of Faith Giving to Missions above and > beyond Tithes and Offerings God has shown us that we > cannot out-give Him. Not only do we give in this > manner personally but also through our company. > Since we began in that area with the Company God has > prospered us there as well. When I began tithing > from the Company I applied the same principle that > is called for as an individual. That of giving from > the first fruits not from what is left. I committed > to God that I would give 10% of every dollar that > came in before any bill was paid. Believe me that > took faith. Had I not already known what God had > done in our personal giving relationship I don't > think that I would have been able to make that step > of faith. Tithing may well be an Old Testament > Command but I promise you that it has New Testament > application that will only bring Glory to God and > Lift up His Son Jesus. > > Sorry for rambling on but this is something that is > dear to my heart and I believe as well is dear to > the heart of God.I don't believe anyone will ever > know the true blessing of Grace Giving until they > have (under Grace) given their tithe unto God in a > systematic and planned approach then moved forward > from there. > > > > Lee > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Pastor Hughes > To: pastorsforum@... > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] tithing > > > I have seen Gods blessings off churches ie people > because they dont tithe > > i have been saved 26 yrs and have tithed all this > time and have been blessed beyond > my wildest dreams in all areas of my life > including finances.... > > i attribute it to being obedient and faithful in > giving God what He says is His the________. > > and giving Him some of what is mine....(part of > the 90% left after He is given His..... > > by the way .....He always gets His.....in one way > or another......heh eheheheh > > if you know what I mean jelly bean.... > > anyone got any...."I wish I would of tithed on > that....stories.....it would of been cheaper..... > > hehehhehe > I may have been forgotten but I aint gone...... > Pastor Hughes > East Mesa Baptist Church > http://www.azboss.net/~embc/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: iggy@... > To: pastorsforum@... > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 4:36 PM > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] tithing > > > I agree 10% is a good place to start with > your MONEY. > Personally guys I don't care if someone > calls it tithe or giving. > But so many teach "TITHING" yet miss > important basic understandings of this > topic. I have seen people run out of > churches because of this teaching. I have see > peoples faith shaken and even devastated > because of this teaching. > > > iggy > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: pastorsforum@... > Date: 03/13/04 15:39:43 > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] tithing > > Iggy, > If you would prefer to use the word > "giving" instead of "tithe" then I have not problem > with your translation of that. Give then! I think > most of the fellows here are using the term to > relate a concept rather than a limit of how much or > little to give. I suspect most view it as a good > starting place under grace. > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: iggy@... [mailto:iggy@...] > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:31 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] tithing > > > First off Abraham gave a 10th of his > plunder. My perspective is, if you give all you > have, > a tenth is not even in your mind. > You give more than that all times. > Again you miss the main point. > > TITHING IS OT UNDER THE LAW. YOU > MUST BE A JEW AND GIVE TO THE LEVITICAL PRIEST! That > is very important in understanding TITHE. > Tithing is a legal requirement God > set to teach about Jesus! It is a shadow of the > reality that is in Jesus. > > Giving is NT. > > Colossians states concerning things > > 2: 16. Therefore do not let anyone > judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard > to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a > Sabbath day. > 17. These are a shadow of the > things that were to come; the reality, however, is > found in Christ. NIV > > 2: 16. Let no man therefore judge > you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an > holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: > 17. Which are a shadow of things > to come; but the body is of Christ. > > Now with this in mind read the > passage in Hebrews. It is about the beginnings of > the Levitical Priesthood. Here we find a shadow, > Melchizedek, then the reality is Jesus. > Jesus is our High Priest. > > It goes on to explain he made the > sin offering of Himself, and now in heaven He offers > offerings. US! Or as Romans 12 says Offer yourselves > as living sacrifices. > > 10% is not a sacrifice, to me not > even much of a commitment. Jesus requires all of us. > > Imagine Jesus offering you as an > offering to God, saying here is 10% of Pastor > Joseph. Do you think God would love that one? > > We are called to give all we > own,(rich young ruler). We are to give as we have > been blessed. Ipersonally have been blessed with > much, starting with eternal life. I have nothing to > give God He does not already have. But, the one > thing He wants is me, you and everyone. > > Again, this is the only thing we can > give to God which He accepts. > > Will God bless you if you give? YES! > But, not because we gave, but because we are His > Children. > > I believe and trust in the Grace of > God, I give as the NT instructs. > > I will also add, if you receive > tithe, you better study the Levitical Priests and > live as they did. Also, you better start offering > sacrifices at the alter of the sanctuary. > > My point is this, if your > congregation tithes to your church and to you, you > better fulfill the other side of this requirement. > > > iggy > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: pastorsforum@... > Date: 03/13/04 07:03:34 > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] tithing > > Joseph show me one NT > reference to this please. > > > iggy > > The tithe means ten percent. > By comparing Ge. 14:20 with He. 7:2 we see that the > tithe is ten percent of one's income. OLD TESTAMENT > GIVING. There were at least nine different occasions > for giving in the O.T. economy under the Law of > Moses. All giving and sacrifice is a way of honoring > and worshiping God (Pr. 3:9). Consider the following > types of offerings Israel brought to God: TITHES > UNDER THE LAW (Le. 27:30; De. 14:22; Ne. 12:47; Mal. > 3:8-12). Apparently there were two tithes in Israel: > The first tithe was given to sustain the priests > (Nu. 18:21-24; De. 12:19). The second tithe was > eaten before the Lord by the offerers (De. 12:17-18; > 14:23-27). This second tithe was taken out of that > which remained after the Levites were satisfied, and > was given every third year (De. 14:28-29). > Redemption money (Le. 27:3-7). Firstborn (Ex. > 13:2,12; 22:30; 34:19; Le. 27:26). The firstborn > animals were not to be worked or sheared, but > sacrificed before the Lord (De. 15:19-20). > Sacrificial offerings (Le. 1-6). Corners (Le. > 19:9-10; De. 24:19). Freewill offerings and vows > (Le. 22:17-19; 27:1-29; Nu. 6:13-21; De. 12:6,11; > 23:21-23). Firstfruits (Ex. 23:19; De. 26:1-4). > Sabbath of the land (Le. 25:1-7). Year of Jubilee > (Le. 25:8-34). TITHING AND THE CHRISTIAN. The > following is from ABCs of Christian Growth by Robert > Sargent (Bible Baptist Church, 1701 Harns Rd., Oak > Harbor, WA 98277. 360-675-8311. baptist@...) > -- IS TITHING TO BE PRACTICED BY THE N.T. CHRISTIAN? > Abraham Commenced it (Ge. 14:18-20). Jacob Continued > it (Ge. 28:20-22). Moses Confirmed it (Le. 27:30). > Malachi Commanded it (Mal. 3:10). Jesus Commended it > (Mt. 23:23). God Commissioned it (1 Co. 9:14). Paul > Conformed it (1 Co. 16:2). A study of these > Scriptures shows that tithing is a scriptural > principle. Abraham and Jacob tithed 500 years BEFORE > the Law was instituted. Moses, Malachi, and Jesus > spoke of tithing DURING the period of the Law. The > Apostle Paul explained tithing AFTER the Law. > Christians ought to tithe! HOW SHOULD CHRISTIANS > PRACTICE TITHING? Under the Law tithing was > commanded. Under Grace, we do not tithe > legalistically, but because we love the Lord (2 Co. > 5:14). Do you think God would ask less love, less > faith, and less cheerful giving from a N.T. > Christian than from a Jew under the Law? Tithing, > for the Christian, is not a matter of bondage. WHERE > SHOULD A CHRISTIAN PLACE HIS OR HER TITHE? (1) > According to Mal. 3:10, the tithes were to be > brought into the storehouse. For the Jews, this > storehouse was the Temple at Jerusalem. (2) > According to Acts 4:35,37 and Acts 5:2, the > Christians brought their tithes and offerings to the > Apostles' feet. (3) According to 1 Co. 16:2, we are > to lay up our giving in store. Subsequent verses > show this store was the Church at Corinth, to whom > the Epistle was first addressed. (4) Today the > storehouse for your tithe is your CHURCH. It is not > God's plan for you to give your tithe wherever you > decide. WHY ARE WE TO PLACE OUR TITHE INTO OUR > CHURCH? The tithes and offerings in the O.T. were > used for the Temple and the Temple ministry (i.e., > the priests, etc.) (Mal. 3:10). 1 Co. 9:13-14 > applies this principle to the N.T. church. "Do you > not know that they which minister about holy things > live of the things of the temple? and they which > wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? EVEN > SO hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the > gospel should live of the gospel." Verse 13 relates > to the O.T. practice. Verse 14 carries this practice > over to N.T. churches. Your tithes and offerings are > for the support, upkeep, and ministry of your > Church. Tithes should never be designated--they are > to be left free for use as the church body decides. > WHAT DOES GOD CALL US IF WE REFUSE TO TITHE? "Will a > man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, > Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and > offerings" (Mal. 3:8). WHAT IS THE PROMISE GOD GIVES > TO THOSE WHO FAITHFULLY TITHE? "Bring ye all the > tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat > in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the > Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of > heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there > should not be room enough to receive it" (Mal. > 3:10). WHOSE IS THE TITHE? The tithe is the Lord's > (Le. 27:30). Ten percent of your gross income is not > yours--it belongs to God. HOW CAN I PLEASE MY LORD > WHEN TITHING? (1) Give the Lord first place in > everything (Mt. 6:33). (2) Honor the Lord with your > first fruits (Pr. 3:9-10). This means to set aside > the tithe first--before all other bills and > expenses. If you leave the tithe until last, God > usually misses out. (3) Bring the tithe on the > Lord's day (1 Co. 16:2). > -- > > ____________________________________________________ > FREE web-based email - > http://www.BaptistMail.com > > Powered by Outblaze -- To > unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential > things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > in all things, charity." > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - > Click Here > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > ===== john o'keefe http://www.ginkworld.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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