There wasn't a debate before then because everyone up to that point held to
exactly what I believe.  LOL


DW


-----Original Message-----
From: shieldwolf@... [mailto:shieldwolf@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:34 PM
To: pastorsforum@...
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Calvinism questions

I know the debate in part was brought to a head between Pelagius and
Augustine in the 4th Century, but I honestly do not know the history of
the debate prior to that---or if there was one. :)

Blessings,
Randy

>
> Again, this is where we part company.  the whole new  testament is about
> man
> making a choice just like it was in the old testament in  Josh 24:15.
>
> Also, as in Luke 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye  repent, ye shall
> all
> likewise perish.
>
> Here it shows that there is a choice.  If you repent you  will not perish.
> If you do repent you will not perish.  That shows  that it could go either
> way
> depending upon the action of the one either  repenting or not repenting!
>
> You are my brother but I view Calvinism as having no part of  Historical
> Christianity!
> Doc
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/8/2008 10:31:41 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> revrock@... writes:
>
> It doesn't make sense if it is true the  whole NT is based on making a
> choice
> (of man).  But it makes complete  sense based on the fact that the whole
> NT
> teaches that man in his sinful state  cannot make a choice unless God
> enables
> him to do so.
>
> Peace,
> Steve
>
> _Dpowellaz2@..._ (mailto:Dpowellaz2@...)  wrote:
>
>
> Steve, I think this is the single most stumbling block  that many of us
> have
> with Calvinism.  The whole New Testament is based  on the fact of making a
> choice to become a follower of Christ only to find  that no one has a
> choice.  If
> God chose you then you will be saved , no  matter what.  If you have not
> been
> chosen then you are going to hell no  matter what.  It just doesn't make
> sense when compared to the entire  New Testament!  IMHO!
> Doc
>
> In a message dated 7/8/2008 10:10:59 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> _revrock@..._ (mailto:revrock@...)  writes:
>
> Doc,
> I don't  think I have ever denied the fact that God has chosen to "pass
> over"
> some  while at the same time "electing" others.
> Romans 9:21-24   21 Or does not the  potter have a right over the clay, to
> make from the same lump one vessel  for honorable use, and another for
> common
> use?  22 What if God,  although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to
> make His
> power known,  endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for
> destruction?  23 And He did so in order that He might make known  the
> riches of His
> glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared  beforehand for glory,  24
> even us, whom He also called, not from  among Jews only, but also from
> among
> Gentiles.
>
> God  created us - what ever He chooses to do is Good and  Just.
>
> Peace,
> Steve
>
>
> _Dpowellaz2@..._ (mailto:Dpowellaz2@...)  wrote:
>
>
> Steve, without getting back into our argument of  before, I still fail to
> see
> why Calvinists claim that God choose the  elect but did not choose those
> who
> are going to hell.  How can you  have one without the other?  By the shear
> nature of the question,  if God chooses those who will go to heaven then
> He did
> not choose the  rest.  The only explanation is that those who are
> non-elect He
> choice to go to hell no matter what!
> Doc
>
> In a message dated 7/8/2008 9:20:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> _revrock@..._ (mailto:revrock@...)  writes:
>
> There are a couple  of things here - first no one is saved kicking and
> screaming against  their will as some try to paint those who believe in
> the
> Doctrines of  Grace.  The Holy Spirit brings to life dead men so that they
>  might
> believe in Christ.  Once alive they willingly seek to serve  and glorify
> Christ.
>
> Second, I wonder if the person who wrote  this booklet would find it
> offensive that God chose His elect before  the foundation of the World.
> Would they be
> offended that God  chose people against their will?  So you see it comes
> don't to  the same thing - those who attack the doctrines of Grace are
> offended
> that God sees Man as a wicked helpless sinner who is unable to pull
> himself up
> by his own bootstraps and save himself.  It is called  Amazing Grace for a
> reason!
>
> Peace,
> Steve
>
> Jerry Lewis wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> I am reviewing a booklet that  deals with Calvinism as "another gospel."
>
> I found this statement in the  introduction:
>
> "What a strange doctrine it is  that wicked ungodly sinful people are
> saved
> without their consent as  Calvinism teaches."
>
> Is this part of Calvinistic  belief, that the elect are saved without
> their
> consent???
>
> My thinking is that the answer  would be no, ... that the Calvinist would
> say
> that God gives the  wicked ungodly sinful person faith to consent and
> believe.
>
> So, ... how would you  Calvinists respond?
>
> Jerry
> "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said,  Ye know not what manner of
> spirit ye are of. For the Son of man  is not come to destroy men's lives,
> but
> to save them. . (Luke  9:55-56).
>
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> --
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> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>
> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>
> PO Box 88
>
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>
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> Pastor Dr. David  Powell
>
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> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>
> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>
> PO Box 88
>
> Lisbon, NY  13658
>
> 315-393-9041
>
> _revrock@..._ (mailto:revrock@...)
>
>
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> --
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> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>
> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>
> PO Box 88
>
> Lisbon, NY  13658
>
> 315-393-9041
>
> _revrock@..._ (mailto:revrock@...)
>
>
>
> Church site: _http://lisbonrpc.org_ (http://lisbonrpc.org/)
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