Randy, You do know how to reach Jeff.? He is still around posting stuff about other ministries. Rev. Charles Cockroft Associate Pastor First Assembly of God, Denison, Texas A Church Without Walls -------------------------------------------------- From: <shieldwolf@...> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:14 AM To: <pastorsforum@...> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers > Jerry, I understand what you were getting at with all this. I'm sorry > that Jeff left. He was the one IFB guy with whom I felt I could talk. > Unfortunately, a zeal for "doctrinal purity" can quickly deteriorate from > the basic core of Christianity and go down into which hymnal or which > color the carpet should be. Worse, good Christians can attack each others > personalities and love for Christ and each other is lost. I really think > that is what you are trying to avoid. > > Now, from the data I have, I disagree with you on Copeland and Hinn, but > you have suggested new data which I will eventually read. From that > perspective, I think the discussion was good. I think at first your > position was not clear. At first, it seemed like, "don't talk bad about > faith healers" but then I then you made your position more and more clear > and have continued to do so. > > I left another list because it was either "conform to our theology or you > are an idiot! Shut up!" Legalism there was the standard, and if there is > one thing I will stand and fight in the Christian community, it's > legalism. > > I don't think Jeff was told not to share or debate. I hope Jeff comes > back. If not, he has left for the wrong reason. > > Blessings, > Randy > >> DW, >> >> >> >> Sad???? What is really sad is that a member of long standing was >> unwilling to abide by the rules. PF is not and will not be a venue for >> mud-slinging. >> >> >> >> We will not allow PF to morph or degenerate into a "killing-field" where >> some ministers of Christ throw stones at other ministers of Christ. >> >> >> >>>>>> That, to me, seems a better alternative than stifling debate and >>>>>> discussion and cutting off the voice of disagreement. >> >> >> >> This is a foolish charge. No one has been silenced on PF. >> >> >> >> You can discuss and debate to your heart's content, unless you digress >> into personal attacks, character assassination, and name-calling. That >> will not be tolerated. >> >> >> >> This has repeatedly been made clear. Our departed brother was well aware >> of the policies but flagrantly disregarded them. >> >> >> >> You can agree or disagree with IFB, WOF, Calvinism, new evangelicalism, >> Charismatic, Pentecostal, modern translations, CCM, or whatever, all you >> want to. >> >> >> >> You are welcome to criticize any denomination or religious group. You can >> discuss Bentley's methods of ministry and whether or not it was >> appropriate to kick a man in his stomach. >> >> >> >> You can criticize any doctrinal belief and say that it is wrong or false. >> You can take any statement by Benny Hinn and discuss whether or not it is >> Scriptural, true, false, in error, etc. >> >> >> >> But posting articles and links to web sites that slash, bash, and burn >> through personal attacks is not acceptable. >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>What I was seeking was more fleshing out of the quote so I could >>>>>>>>> quickly see the greater context and judge for myself if the quote >>>>>>>>> was accurate. When Jerry L said the quote was dishonest and >>>>>>>>> bashing and out of context he was saying the quote wasn't >>>>>>>>> accurately reflecting what these guys said. He couldn't know that >>>>>>>>> unless he had the greater context and knew what they said and how >>>>>>>>> these quotes were not as they seemed to be. When I asked for it, >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> was never given it but told to go dig for it somewhere else in a >>>>>>>>> book or two. I've drawn my own conclusion from that. >> >> >> >> DW, I am familiar enough with the ministers being bashed to know that the >> attacks did not fairly present these minister's doctrinal views and >> beliefs. >> >> >> >> However, I am not going to engage in a wild-goose chase trying to find >> documentation of every belief of these ministers to counteract the >> foolish >> attacks against them just to satisfy you. >> >> >> >> Your track record has demonstrated to me that you will believe whatever >> you want to believe regardless of the evidence presented to you. I do >> not >> have that kind of time to waste in fruitless pursuit. >> >> >> >> If you are sincere in seeking the truth about these issues, there has >> already been enough information posted on PF to get you a good start, and >> there have been a several excellent books listed that document the out of >> context quotes used by some heresy hunters. >> >> >> >> Jerry >> >> "Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up >> and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth >> to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, >> Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. And immediately he >> rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his >> own house, glorifying God." (Luke 5:23-25). >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Warner >> To: pastorsforum@... >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:33 AM >> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> That's what I was afraid of. You simply made an assertion without any >> proof the article and links were out of context or you would willingly >> provide the evidence. This is sad. I remember the time when Joe L >> (former owner of the group) was accused of trying to shut up or silence >> those who were not IFB. Joe wasn't IFB. But some thought he was and >> made the accusation toward him. Now, we have one of the original >> members of the forum, an IFB man who felt so stifled he chose to leave. >> This is a sad day for the group. >> >> >> >> DW >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> From: Jerry [mailto:jlew@...] >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:04 AM >> To: pastorsforum@... >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> DW, >> >> >> >> NO. >> >> >> >> You can dig it out yourself. The books are not expensive. Or, you can >> write the various minister's web sites and inquire of them. Most of >> them will answer you and tell you what they believe and teach. >> >> >> >> If you can't see it by what has already been posted you'll not see it >> whatever evidence is presented. >> >> >> >> I don't have the time to waste spinning wheels with you. >> >> >> >> Jerry >> >> "Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise >> up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon >> earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto >> thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. And >> immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and >> departed to his own house, glorifying God." (Luke 5:23-25). >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: David Warner >> >> To: pastorsforum@... >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 5:26 PM >> >> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> THAT's what I'm asking you for. How were they "out of context" and >> what context do you say they were in that would change the apparent >> meaning of what was said? You made the assertion and now I'm asking >> for some greater context so I can judge for myself. Obviously you >> already have this available because you've made the judgment that the >> context was different than the one presented. Please share it with >> me. Show me the strawman. Show me the misrepresentations. Show me >> the dishonesty. In fact, I didn't see it in the posts so please show >> me the blasting that took place. I don't have the money for the two >> books so just give me a paragraph or so of the context so I can see if >> they were really out of context as presented or if the claim is simply >> a ruse. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> DW >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: Jerry Lewis [mailto:jlew0@...] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 5:14 PM >> To: pastorsforum@... >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> DW, >> >> >> >> What I posted then and what you tailed your note here to me to should >> communicate enough. >> >> >> >> One cannot judge righteous judgment based on out of context >> soundbytes >> and partial quotations. >> >> >> >> Anyone who blasts another preacher based on strawman >> misrepresentations is dishonest. >> >> >> >> If you want to take it further, buy the two books mentioned below. >> That will give you a good start with much more data than what I have >> available. >> >> >> >> Jerry >> >> "Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, >> Rise >> up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon >> earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say >> unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. And >> immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, >> and departed to his own house, glorifying God." (Luke 5:23-25). >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: David Warner >> >> To: pastorsforum@... >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:29 PM >> >> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> Jerry, >> >> I hope you will have time soon to give the long answer to my >> questions on where in the articles and clips posted by Jeff of where >> what was said was out of context and false and misrepresented what >> they actually did say in the larger context. The short answer >> didn't really say anything to me. >> >> >> >> DW >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: Jerry Lewis [mailto:jlew0@...] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 3:30 PM >> To: pastorsforum@... >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve, >> >> >> >> >>>> Hinn's teaching is that we are or become divine. I believe >> such teaching to be false. But what about you? >> >> >>>>That is more akin to Mormon teaching than it is to orthodox >> Christian teaching. >> >> >> First, I am not a fan, follower, or defender of Benny Hinn, . but >> I >> will jump in and speak up when I think he is being unfairly >> criticized and condemned. While I support the ministry of healing >> and evangelism, there are many things about Mr Hinn that I do not >> agree with or support. >> >> >> >> Secondly, there is no Scripture that states that men become divine. >> That is NOT what Benny is saying. There are Scriptures that state >> that we are partakers of the divine nature and that we are born of >> God. There are many Biblical references to Christians being "sons >> of God." >> >> In a review of a book, "Heresy Hunters: Character Assassination In >> The Church," by James R. Spencer, the reviewer wrote, >> >> We are told to approach our sinning brother with a spirit of >> meekness (Gal. 6:1-2) but so called "Defenders of the faith" are >> doing just the opposite. Many have picked up the secular >> journalistic ways of using 30 second soundbites and out of context >> quotes to make someone say something that they were not implying. >> >> And then discussing an issue very close to my heart, the Word of >> Faith movement, Spencer, a former Mormon elder himself, shows how >> the teaching of Word of Faith doctrine is nothing close to >> Mormonism. For instance he shows that when WOF makes the claim that >> they are "little gods" they are not calling themselves "deity" or on >> an equal footing with God but simply saying that they are God's >> offspring through the new birth in Christ. >> >> The same reviewer commented about a follow-up title by the same >> author, "Bleeding Hearts and Propaganda: The Fall Of Reason," by >> James R. Spencer, >> >> After his first book which has been reviewed above, James Spencer >> came under serious attacks by the very people he exposes in his >> book. They even went as far as attacking his family. This shows how >> far these Heresy Hunters will go to get revenge on those who do not >> agree with their mission to destroy the ministry of others. He >> exposes the true nature of many of these Heresy >> Hunters/Pop-apologists. Spencer is an apologist himself and believes >> in the true ministry of apologetics but does not believe in hunting >> for heresy. >> >> I really loved chapter eleven where Spencer shows verbatim how >> Hanegraaf has taken statements Copeland says out of context by >> quoting the part that Hanegraaf uses to make Copeland sound >> heretical and then quoting the full context of what Copeland said to >> prove that it was not what Hanegraaf implied. In my opinion such >> tactics reveals dishonesty and a lack of integrity on the part of >> ministries such as this. >> >> Jerry >> >> "Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, >> Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath >> power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the >> palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into >> thine house. And immediately he rose up before them, and took up >> that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God." >> (Luke 5:23-25). >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Steven G. Rockhill >> >> To: pastorsforum@... >> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:22 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> O.K. Jerry, let me ask you this -= based on the Scripture that we >> are 'adopted as sons of God' - Benny Hinn teaches that we are >> therefore "little gods". Hinn's teaching is that we are or become >> divine. I believe such teaching to be false. But what about you? >> Could you please place these comments in a context that would >> make them statements of orthodox Christianity? I think that would >> be most helpful for the rest of us. Unless Benny Hinn had said >> before this or after this - "But this is a lie and a false >> teaching" and the video editor edited out those comments - there >> is no way that you can place such comments in a context that is >> orthodox. >> >> Jerry, I know you favor some of these teachers like Benny because >> of their emphasis on miracles, tongues, victorious living, and >> promises of health and prosperity. That's fine if you do and >> (sadly) there are many sincere Christians who do as well. But >> when you look at the "whole package" there is teaching that is not >> only "un-biblical" or at best "in house debate differences" but >> there is teaching that violates the very core of Christian belief >> - in this case saying that men are divine "little gods". That is >> more akin to Mormon teaching than it is to orthodox Christian >> teaching. >> >> I am sure Benny Hinn teaches many things that are true and >> orthodox beliefs, but he also teaches things that are false, >> deceptive and even evil. In my Book that makes him a _________ >> teacher. But since we can't attack the man I will simply say >> Benny Hinn teaches a doctrine that is false. >> >> Peace, >> Steve >> >> >> Jerry wrote: >> >> Randy, >> >> The issue in this case is that the individuals mentioned >> have >> clearly "jumped ship" when it comes to the historic Christian >> faith. >> >> >> One cannot make such a judgment based on edited sound bytes and >> out of context or partial quotations. >> >> Jerry >> "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what >> manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to >> destroy men's lives, but to save them. . (Luke 9:55-56). >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shieldwolf" >> <shieldwolf@...> >> To: <pastorsforum@...> >> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> >> >> I don't think that is the issue in this case. The issue in this >> case is that the individuals mentioned have clearly "jumped ship" >> when it comes to the historic Christian faith. As I said before, >> it is old news. If someone chooses to ignore that news, there is >> nothing one can do about that. >> >> Blessings, >> Randy >> >> JoynCharles wrote: >> >> Jeff, >> If I did not agree with your doctrine, then would it be my duty >> to expose it here? Rev. Charles Cockroft >> Associate Pastor >> First Assembly of God, Denison, Texas >> A Church Without Walls >> >> *From:* Jeff Hallmark <mailto:bctexan@...> >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 05, 2008 4:26 PM >> *To:* pastorsforum@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum@...> >> *Subject:* Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False Teachers >> >> David P, it is not my concern is one agrees with my conclusions >> or >> not. Doctrinal error must be exposed, if one is all-inclusive in >> doctrine. They will have a problem with those of us who are not >> all-inclusive in doctrine. Jesus, Peter and Paul all exposed error >> inline with the Word of God. But then some do not have the Word of >> God today, yet many of us have God's Word today. >> >> Enjoy the heat. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:13 PM, <Dpowellaz2@... >> <mailto:Dpowellaz2@...>> wrote: >> >> I understand but you must also know that there are many who >> do >> not >> share your conclusions. So you see, in many of these videos >> you >> share it is indeed a disagreement. Sometimes, I am not >> necessarily referring to these particular ones, what you feel >> is >> error is not what others, equally dedicated to God's Word as >> yourself, classify as error. There is a fine line between >> pointing out error (IYO) and in putting down other servants >> of >> God! >> Doc >> */Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!/* >> (*Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!*) >> Pastor Dr. David Powell >> In a message dated 7/5/2008 12:24:51 P.M. US Mountain >> Standard >> Time, bctexan@... <mailto:bctexan@...> writes: >> >> David P, it is not that we "just disagree with" but error >> that >> needs to be exposed. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 9:52 AM, <Dpowellaz2@... >> <mailto:Dpowellaz2@...>> wrote: >> >> I just think that our time can better be spent >> leading >> people to Christ instead away from teachers we don't >> agree >> with. If our voices were going to make a difference >> it >> would have long ago! >> Doc >> In a message dated 7/5/2008 9:39:46 A.M. US Mountain >> Standard Time, dwarner@... >> <mailto:dwarner@...> >> writes: >> >> *Are none of these people still on the public >> airwaves >> teaching and preaching these same doctrines which >> call >> for gospel preachers to warn this present >> generation? I've heard of most of these people but >> do not know if >> any are actively soliciting new followers today.* >> >> ** >> *DW* >> >> ** >> ** >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Dpowellaz2@... >> <mailto:Dpowellaz2@...> >> [mailto:Dpowellaz2@... >> <mailto:Dpowellaz2@...>] >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 05, 2008 12:32 PM >> *To:* pastorsforum@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum@...> >> *Subject:* Re: [PastorsForum] Teaching of False >> Teachers >> >> >> I must agree with Randy at this point. It sxeems >> rather nonsense to drudge up old issues unless it >> is >> just for the sole purpose of putting doesn people >> that >> have already been dealt with. I am not a fan of >> any >> of those mentioned but why don't we stick with >> contemporary issues rather than some that are so >> far >> back as to not really be issues at all, at least >> not >> for those today! >> >> Doc >> >> >> In a message dated 7/5/2008 9:04:42 A.M. US >> Mountain >> Standard Time, shieldwolf@... >> <mailto:shieldwolf@...> writes: >> >> A Jeff, while most of this news isn't as old >> as >> "Hitler invades Poland" it >> is at least 15 years old because 15 years ago >> I >> was selling the following >> books that dealt with this: >> A different Gospel, >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Different-Gospel-Biblical-Historical-Insights/dp/1565631323/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215273625&sr=8-1 >> >> >> <http://www.amazon.com/Different-Gospel-Biblical-Historical-Insights/dp/1565631323/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215273625&sr=8-1> >> and Micheal Horton's the Agony of Deceit >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Agony-Deceit-Preachers-Really-Teaching/dp/0802487785/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215273675&sr=1-11 >> >> >> <http://www.amazon.com/Agony-Deceit-Preachers-Really-Teaching/dp/0802487785/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215273675&sr=1-11> >> and Hank Hannegraff had one, too. >> >> It looks like these books are almost 20 years >> old. Granted, the data is >> still there and the folk you mentioned still >> seem >> to be proclaiming their >> heterodox to heretical views, but still. >> Those >> fish have been in the sun >> for some time now. >> >> Blessings! >> Randy >> >> >> > In Their Own Words - Word Faith >> > >> Teachers<http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=980>from >> > sliceoflaodicea.com >> >> >> <http://sliceoflaodicea.com/><http://www.google.com/reader/view/feed/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sliceoflaodicea.com%2F%3Ffeed%3Drss2>by >> > Ingrid >> > Schlueter >> > >> > Here John Avanzini >> > >> declares<http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/mp3/duplacate.mp3>that >> God >> > told him that morning that His eternal >> purpose is >> duplicating >> > Himself in the earth. Avanzini is one of >> the >> speakers at the Word Faith >> > conference where Ray Comfort will be >> speaking. >> Ray has no choice but to >> > expose this blasphemy to the people >> attending. >> > >> > Here's Kenneth Copeland claiming that God >> the >> Father is from another >> > >> planet<http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/mp3/motherplanet.mp3> >> > . >> > >> > Here Paul Crouch and Kenneth >> > >> Copeland<http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/mp3/jesusnotgod.mp3>question >> > that Jesus was God. >> > >> > Here Benny Hinn teaches >> > >> <http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/mp3/bennywegod.mp3>that >> God made us >> > little gods. >> > >> > Here Copeland lays the foundation of Word >> of >> > >> Faith<http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/mp3/copland-god-man.mp3>teachings-Adam >> > was God. >> > >> > Those who are further interested in >> learning >> about the roots of the Word >> > of >> > Faith teachings should read this excellent >> > >> article<http://www.letusreason.org/WF48.htm>on >> how the Word of Faith >> > teachings came out of the mind sciences. >> > >> > >> ShareThis<http://sharethis.com/item?&wp=2.5.1&publisher=832b0e77-8253-476c-8a10-bc287bfe33c0&title=In+Their+Own+Words+%26%238212%3B+Word+Faith+Teachers&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sliceoflaodicea.com%2F%3Fp%3D980 >> >> >> <http://sharethis.com/item?&wp=2.5.1&publisher=832b0e77-8253-476c-8a10-bc287bfe33c0&title=In+Their+Own+Words+%26%238212%3B+Word+Faith+Teachers&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sliceoflaodicea.com%2F%3Fp%3D980>> >> > Popout >> > Original audio source >> >> <http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/mp3/duplacate.mp3> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Bro. Jeff Hallmark >> > www.sprucelandbaptist.com >> <http://www.sprucelandbaptist.com/> >> > http://baptist-potluck.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > To subscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-join@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-join@...> >> > >> > To unsubscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> <mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...> >> > >> > >> >> To subscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-join@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-join@...> >> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> <mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...> >> >> >> */Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!/* >> (*Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!*) >> Pastor Dr. David Powell >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for >> fuel-efficient used cars >> >> <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>. >> >> >> To subscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-join@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-join@...> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...> >> >> >> >> >> To subscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-join@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-join@...> >> >> To unsubs >> cribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for >> fuel-efficient >> used cars >> <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>. >> >> To subscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-join@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-join@...> >> >> To unsubs >> cribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> <mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bro. Jeff Hallmark >> www.sprucelandbaptist.com <http://www.sprucelandbaptist.com> >> http://baptist-potluck.blogspot.com/ >> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... >> >> To unsubs >> cribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >> >> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... >> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to: >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG. 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