Derick, I cannot understand the connection. The Holy Spirit does not
possess a body. That is why he is a Spirit. A person yes, a person
manifested in bodily form, no.
Mike Cantrell
-----Original Message-----
From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:07 PM
To: pastorsforum@...
Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
Mike,
My point exactly. Yet, He is a person and thus the phrase used about
the church not "seeing" it as in the universal is validated.
------------------------------------
Wallers Baptist Church
Pastor
derick@...
PO Box 95
Partlow VA 22534
tel: 540-582-5703
mobile: 540-894-1772
www.thedickensfamily.org
------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:12 PM
> To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
>
>
> I have never seen a spirit. Holy or otherwise.
>
> Mike Cantrell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 5:12 PM
> To: pastorsforum@...
> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
>
> You ever see the Holy Spirit?
>
> Derick
>
> ------------------------------------
> Wallers Baptist Church
> Pastor
> derick@...
> PO Box 95
> Partlow VA 22534
> tel: 540-582-5703
> mobile: 540-894-1772
> www.thedickensfamily.org
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:37 AM
> > To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > David, David, David. A body signifies substance and mass.
> A man as
> > learned as you ought to realize wind is the effect of air
> > moving from a
> > high pressure to a lower pressure.
> >
> >
> > Mike Cantrell
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DAVID POWELL [SMTP:dpowellaz@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:26 AM
> > To: pastorsforum@...
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> > Anyone ever "see" the wind?
> >
> > David Powell, Senior Pastor
> > Cotton Lane Community Church
> > Waddell, AZ
> > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!
> > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Cantrell<mailto:mcantrell@...>
> > To:
> > 'pastorsforum@...'<mailto:'pastorsforum@...'>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:33 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > Anyone ever seen an invisible body?
> >
> > Mike Cantrell
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J [SMTP:jelewis@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:02 AM
> > To: pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> > David W,
> >
> > Can you see the Body of Christ????
> > How many "bodies of Christ" are there?
> >
> > Jerry L
> > Southside Baptist
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:11 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > Yea, you said it but you must have meant to say, "just
> > because a few
> > SBC
> > churches believe in the invisible body theory it must
> exist." Opps.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DAVID POWELL [mailto:dpowellaz@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:11 PM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > I guess the way I answer that is this, just because
> > they think you
> > can
> > lose your salvation does not make it so! I guess it is
> > sort of like just
> >
> > because the IFB churches deny the church universal doesn't
> > mean that it
> > does not exist! Oppps, did I say that?
> >
> > David Powell, Senior Pastor
> > Cotton Lane Community Church
> > Waddell, AZ
> > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!
> > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 7:03 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > Here you go J. I'll help you out in your further
> > study of Bible
> > doctrine concerning the AG. (Assembly of God). This verifies my
> > statement
> > below which is not erroneous, outlandish, accusing falsely,
> > but shows it
> > is
> > you who seem to lack understanding of this group. Perhaps
> > that helps
> > explain why you as a Baptist could join in an evangelistic
> > campaign with
> > them. If not, please explain.
> >
> > This is from their official web site:
> > http://ag.org/top/beliefs/ch<http://ag.org/top/beliefs/ch>
> > ristian_doctrines/gendoct_09_security.cfm
> >
> >
> > They say--
> > Security of the Believer (Backsliding)
> >
> > What is the Assemblies of God position on the
> security of the
> > believer's salvation?
> >
> > The Assemblies of God has taken a strong stand
> > against the teaching
> >
> > that God's sovereign will completely overrides man's free
> > will to accept
> > and serve Him. In view of this we believe it is possible
> > for a person
> > once
> > saved to turn from God and be lost again.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:07 PM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > David W,
> >
> > You said, No , the AG isn't such a group. They
> > deny the Biblical
> >
> > doctrine of eternal life or everlasting life, as far as I know.
> >
> > David, for you to say such as this demonstrates
> > that you have no
> > knowledge about the AOG.
> >
> > Perhaps It would be wise for you to find out what
> > you are talking
> >
> > about before you make outlandish statements accusing them
> of denying
> > Biblical doctrines. Making judgments based on incomplete
> > or erroneous
> > information can prove to be embarrassing.
> >
> > Why don't you write PoPs and ask him if the AOG
> > deny the Biblical
> >
> > doctrine of eternal life or everlasting life, and see if he
> > agrees with
> > your appraisal......
> >
> > Jerry L
> > Southside Baptist Church
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:54 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > No , the AG isn't such a group. They deny the Biblical
> > doctrine
> > of eternal life or everlasting life, as far as I know.
> > Plus, they formed
> > a
> > new group. There have always been believers of NT doctrine
> > down through
> > history--Novatianists, Donatists, Albigensians, and more,
> > and then Bible
> > Believing Baptist! I do not contend that Baptists are the
> > only believers
> > in
> > the world today. I only say they are the only group who
> > can trace their
> > history through doctrine and practice back to the early
> > church. Even the
> >
> > enemies of Baptist state this as I have posted on this
> > forum before. I
> > believe it was in answer to Steve (you can't sit on the
> side forever
> > without getting dragged in to the fray) when he asked
> about Baptist
> > history.
> > David W
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:21 PM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > David,
> >
> > You said, What I and others have said is that
> > the same faith
> > and practice which characterized the early New Testament
> church is
> > believed
> > and practiced today by the people called Baptists.
> >
> > There are many different churches that do not
> > use the nametag
> >
> > "Baptist" who have the same faith and practice which
> > characterized the
> > New
> > Testament Church. The Assembly of God, for example, is
> > one such group.
> > BTW, they, too, baptize by immersion. They also hold to
> > many of the
> > same
> > beliefs that we call "Baptist Distinctives."
> >
> > There are churches today who carry names that are more
> > Biblical
> > than Baptist: Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of
> > God in Christ,
> > etc.
> >
> > Still, each and every one was started by a man
> > or a woman.
> >
> > Jerry L
> > Southside Baptist Church
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@assoc
> > iate.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:50 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > No, I don't think I did. I don't believe all
> > Christians of
> >
> > all times are in the church. Some chose not to be--for
> > whatever reason.
> > I
> > do believe that all the truly born again and saved are
> > children of God
> > and
> > will be in heaven. In fact, some are already there. But
> > the church is a
> >
> > different issue.
> > Of the over 100 times church or churches or
> > similar is used
> >
> > the local church by far is in view. In fact, only about 2
> > times is the
> > church mentioned that is not local and then it is the
> > church in prospect
> > which will be gathered in heaven when the Lord calls it
> from the 4
> > corners
> > of the world. Since you say that many, many times the
> > world is not a
> > reference to a local congregation, are you then saying that
> > many, many
> > times it is? (if so, does that make it more than one?)
> > Jesus does refer
> >
> > to "the churches" and means local congregations but they
> > are still His
> > church. You and others who resist the name Baptist are the
> > only ones who
> >
> > keep saying Baptist is not in Scripture. I've not read
> > any post that
> > says it is but have read numerous posts that keep bring up
> > that it isn't.
> >
> > There is no need to argue against something that doesn't
> > exist. What I
> > and others have said is that the same faith and practice which
> > characterized the early New Testament church is believed
> > and practiced
> > today by the people called Baptists. As you noted, the
> > name Baptist is
> > relatively new. Only about 400 years, more or less. But
> > the faith and
> > practice is about 2000 years, more or less. So, if we
> are going to
> > discuss
> > "the name" then we are probably on the same page.
> > David Warner
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DAVID POWELL [mailto:dpowellaz@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:08 PM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > The church was started by Jesus Christ
> > during His earthly
> >
> > ministry. The local church I pastor was organized as part
> > of that church
> >
> > subsequent to that. Today, we are still a part of the
> > church that Jesus
> > is
> > building as He continues to do from the days His earthly ministry.
> > Therefore, we are the church Jesus started.
> >
> > David, do you realize that you just gave
> > one of the best
> > explanations of what we call the "Universal" church. Or
> > the "church"
> > that
> > includes all Christians of all times! Are you aware that
> > of the 77 times
> >
> > the word "church" is used in the New Testament that many,
> > many of them
> > are
> > not a reference to a local congregation. If Jesus had
> > intended it to
> > refer
> > to only a local congregation then he would have needed to
> > use the plural
> > of
> > the noun 'ekklesia' since there is not just one local church but
> > thousands
> > if not millions. The term, "Baptist Church" is a
> > relatively new term in
> > the historical scheme of things. The church is referred to
> > in the New
> > Testament as the Church of God 8 times, Church of the
> > Living God once, it
> >
> > is referred to as the Churches of Christ once and it is
> > referred to as
> > the
> > church in a specific town but NEVER is it referred to as
> a "Baptist"
> > Church. That's scriptural!
> > God Bless
> >
> > David Powell, Senior Pastor
> > Cotton Lane Community Church
> > Waddell, AZ
> > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!
> > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:42 AM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:53 AM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > David W,
> >
> > Parachurch ministries work alongside
> > the local church
> >
> > to help Christian serve God and reach people for Christ.
> >
> > IMO, parachurch is not equivalent
> with the local
> > church, yet it is part of the "Church" in the broad sense
> > of the term,
> > all
> > the redeemed of the Lord (which I already know you do not
> > believe in).
> > Parachurch ministries are made up of Christians who are led into
> > ministry
> > by Christ. They do works of ministry in ways that are
> > usually not being
> > done by the local church.
> >
> > Why do you think they can't do this
> > through or under
> > the oversight and authority of the local church?
> >
> >
> > Pastor Bob Thune in an article titled
> "Church &
> > Parachurch" said, "When I say "parachurch," I mean the numerous
> > organizations that exist alongside the church to facilitate
> > its mission -
> >
> > groups like Campus Crusade and Focus on the Family and the
> > Billy Graham
> > Evangelistic Association. "
> >
> > David, are you against evangelistic
> > associations and
> > missionary societies? Are you against gospel singing
> > groups that travel
> > across the country singing for the Lord? Are you against churches
> > "associating" together to encourage missions? The "Baptist
> > Association"
> > and the "Southern Baptist Convention" are both, in a
> > sense, parachurch
> > ministries that support and enlarge the ministry of the
> > local church. Is
> >
> > not the "BBFI" something similar?
> >
> > No, I'm not against them. But they
> > should be under
> > the
> > authority of a local church and accountable to it. If they
> > are not, they
> >
> > have NO Scriptural authority to even exist in the Name of
> > Christ. Maybe
> > they could call themselves good social agencies for the
> > self-improvement
> > of
> > mankind.
> >
> > David, I asked you to "please name me
> > one local
> > church
> > that was started by Jesus and not by a man." You said,
> > The answer to your next to the last
> question is
> > Baptist. David, you STILL have NOT answered the
> question asked.
> > Every
> > local Baptist church was started by a man (or men).
> > "Baptist" describes
> > a
> > belief system, or a type of churches that ascribe to
> > certain doctrines.
> > A
> > "Baptist" church is no more started by Christ than a
> > "Church of Christ"
> > or
> > a Presbyterian church is. They are all started and
> > organized by PEOPLE.
> >
> > In this statement above, you do err and
> > show your
> > lack
> > of understanding historical facts. The church was started by
> > whom?____________________ You keep trying to go to the
> > name and the
> > name
> > was give to this group of believers by those who hated
> > them. They hated
> > them because of the Biblical doctrine they held to even
> > under sentence of
> >
> > death. The single most distinguishing characteristic of
> > these believes
> > were that they insisted on baptizing those who made a
> > profession of faith
> >
> > and this was "mean spirited" and "hateful" and "arrogant"
> > and hated by
> > those of both Protestant and Catholic belief because it
> > didn't recognize
> > their "baptism" as Biblically valid. They started calling
> > these Bible
> > Believers "rebaptizers" or Anabaptists. Today they are
> > generally just
> > called Baptist for the most part. You are correct in the
> > "Baptist" is
> > not
> > a church but you must understand that those people who are
> > called Baptist
> >
> > hold to the same doctrine and practice that the early
> > church did and that
> >
> > is the Church that Jesus started. Therefore, my answer was
> > correct. I
> > did
> > give an answer. You dismissed it with the claim that I
> > STILL had NOT
> > answered when indeed I had.
> >
> > BTW, "the Church of Christ" is THE
> > church that Christ
> >
> > Himself started. Don't you know that every other church is
> > "man - made
> > religion"???? If you are Baptist, Methodist,
> > Presbyterian, etc, then
> > you
> > are part of "man-made religion." If any name OTHER than
> > "the Church of
> > Christ" is on the church, then it is not Christ's Church.
> >
> > Chapter and verse please.
> Documentation please.
> >
> > And if you have been baptized by
> > anyone OTHER than
> > a
> > minister in "the Church of Christ" you are not "New
> > Testament baptized."
> > Now, of course I do NOT believe or accept the things I
> > just stated
> > above
> > in this paragraph. I have heard them said, though, by
> > people who think
> > their church is the ONLY true church. This is error. This
> > is wrong.
> > This
> > is perverted teaching of religion that is not substantiated
> > in the Bible.
> >
> > Here you are confusing the Church of
> Christ with
> > Baptist Church.
> >
> > It is also perverted and wrong to say
> > that "the
> > Baptist church" was started by Christ more so than other
> > denominational
> > churches or independent church. Every local church,
> > including yours, is
> > started by a man (or woman)!!!
> >
> > The church was started by Jesus Christ
> > during His
> > earthly ministry. The local church I pastor was organized
> > as part of
> > that
> > church subsequent to that. Today, we are still a part of
> > the church that
> >
> > Jesus is building as He continues to do from the days His earthly
> > ministry.
> > Therefore, we are the church Jesus started.
> >
> > I believe Jesus instituted marriage,
> government,
> > church. There is no universal visible or invisible
> > marriage but only
> > local individual marriages which
> > comprise marriage
> > universally. But each man is to have his own wife! (ask
> > your wife how
> > she
> > would feel about you partaking with all wives because you
> > are part of the
> >
> > worldwide invisible/visible marriage--that should help you
> > clarify some
> > issues) There is no universal visible or invisible church
> > but only local
> >
> > individual congregations of believers which will comprise
> > the church when
> >
> > gathered in heaven for the marriage feast. Therefore, one
> > should not try
> >
> > to partake with other "bodies" than the one God gave him.
> > We ought to
> > remain monogamous in marriage as well as church. The same
> > could be said
> > for government. Now, I think even those who don't believe this
> > understand
> > that there is coming a day when there will be a
> > one-world-church and I
> > suspect a one-world-marriage in that marriage will not mean
> > anything and
> > for all practical purposes will not exist and we see the
> > perverts calling
> >
> > for that now. The clamor for one church, one government,
> > one or none
> > marriage will only increase in these later days.
> > Whew! That's enough for now.
> >
> > David W
> >
> >
> > Jerry L
> > Southside Baptist Church
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:14 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > First, the term "parachurch" has
> been used for
> > several days (perhaps weeks) on this forum and this is the
> > first time I
> > have seen any ask for a definition. But, here it is. The
> > word is made
> > up
> > of two words. "para" and "church". Para is from the Greek
> > and means
> > "beside". So when used together with church it would mean
> > "beside the
> > church." The parachurch is NOT the church. It is NOT
> > equal with the
> > church. It can not and will not replace the church. Jesus
> > didn't say
> > "upon this rock I will build my church until the parachurch
> > comes along
> > to
> > do what the church can't do or until it fails." Since the
> > parachurch is
> > beside the church or outside the church it is not God's
> > instrument to
> > carry
> > to Gospel and make and baptize believers. That,
> gentlemen, is the
> > mission
> > of the church. The mission of the church IS missions.
> GO, Teach,
> > Baptist,
> > Teach. I still believe it. Now, if it's outside the
> > church and the
> > church
> > is the Bride of Christ, what does that make a parachurch?
> > The answer to your next to the last
> > question is
> > Baptist. You asked me name one. Whether it is believed or
> > not has no
> > bearing on the truth of the answer. Jesus started His
> > church. His Bride
> >
> > will be gathered unto Him some day soon, I believe.
> > David
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:28 PM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE:
> New Question
> >
> >
> > David W,
> >
> >
> >
> > You said, Why do you think it is an
> > IFB view?
> > Could it be a Jeff view? Could it be a Canadian view?
> > Could it be a
> > Texan view? Could it be a Biblical view? What is your
> > basis for making
> > such a statement? Experience. The statement was: I say
> > your perspective
> >
> > is distorted by an IFB view that condemns anyone that is
> > not part of your
> >
> > group, or has any fellowship or joint participation with
> > Christians from
> > other faith traditions.
> >
> >
> >
> > You said, Is this ("IFB have a
> strong bias
> > and/or
> > prejudice against Believers from different denominations
> associating
> > together for Christian ministry of any kind." ) a statement
> > of opinion
> > based on experience or do you have documentation for such a
> > statement?
> > Is
> > it a prejudicial statement or what? Same answer,
> > experience. I never
> > encounter the same attitudes with other faith traditions.
> >
> >
> >
> > You said, what is meant by "faith
> > traditions"?
> > Different Christian denominations.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are "quacks" in all "faith
> > traditions,"
> > including Independent Fundamentalist Baptist and Southern
> > Baptist. I was
> >
> > not picking on any one group. My comments were in the context of a
> > defense
> > against Jeff's condemnation of all parachurch ministries.
> >
> >
> >
> > You said, I believe it is an error
> > to equate
> > parachurch ministries started by men with the church
> > started by Jesus.
> > David, please name me one local church that was started
> > by Jesus and
> > not
> > by a man. Parachurch ministries are just as much started
> > by Christ as
> > First Baptist Church. Both are started by men who are led
> > by Christ and
> > the Holy Spirit to do what hey do.
> >
> >
> >
> > David, what does "parachurch " mean????
> >
> >
> >
> > Jerry L
> >
> > Southside Baptist Church
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pastor David Warner
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:25 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE:
> > New Question
> >
> >
> > Now I've got some questions.
> >
> > J, you said, "...your perspective
> > is distorted
> > by
> > an IFB view.........." Why do you think it is an IFB view?
> > Could it be
> > a
> > Jeff view? Could it be a Canadian view? Could it be a
> > Texan view? Could
> >
> > it be a Biblical view? What is your basis for making such
> > a statement?
> > You then said, "IFB have a strong
> > bias and/or
> > prejudice against Believers from different denominations
> associating
> > together for Christian ministry of any kind." Is this a
> > statement of
> > opinion based on experience or do you have documentation
> for such a
> > statement? Is it a prejudicial statement or what? There
> > was nothing
> > cited
> > as evidence. By the way, what is meant by "faith traditions"?
> > Surely you would agree "false
> > churches" and
> > "false preachers" who tear down true works of God are not
> > the standard
> > for
> > comparison with anything, much less parachurch ministries.
> > When you say
> > "there are even some IFB who are quacks..." would you also
> > say there are
> > some SBC who are quacks. Why pick on the IFB? You site an
> > example what
> > an
> > associate/youth minister of an IFB church was arrested
> for being a
> > "Peeping
> > Tom." Surely that is not your defense for parachurch ministries
> > operating
> > outside the oversight of a local church? If it your view
> > or perception
> > that "Peeping Toms" are the norm or the prevalent
> > characteristic of IFB?
> > I believe it is an error to
> > equate parachurch
> > ministries started by men with the church started by Jesus.
> > "Helps" are
> > individual gifts to complete the body, the church, not
> > parachurch. From
> > the verse you cited you can clearly see it says "in the
> > church." In
> > fact,
> > you argue that and then make the opposite statement. It's a bit
> > confusing.
> > Then you go off into Protestant doctrine and of course you
> > know that
> > from
> > a historic Baptist position I believe that too is error. You make
> > statements are not supported by Scripture but from the
> tradition of
> > Whitsett.
> > Well, just some thoughts. All
> the above,
> > except
> > the quotes," are my opinion and I approved this message.
> > David Warner
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:18 PM
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:past
> > orsforum@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE:
> > New Question
> >
> >
> > Jeffrey,
> >
> > Please forgive me for delay in
> > responding to
> > your previous post. I have been very busy. My thoughts
> > regarding your
> > comments follow:
> >
> > You said, "...just telling it
> > like it is. "
> > No, I say your perspective is
> > distorted by
> > an
> > IFB view that condemns anyone that is not part of your
> > group, or has any
> > fellowship or joint participation with Christians from other faith
> > traditions. IFB have a strong bias and /or prejudice
> > against Believers
> > from different denominations associating together for
> > Christian ministry
> > of
> > any kind.
> >
> > You said, Tell that to
> thousand of good
> > pastors who's churches have been destroyed by parachurch
> ministries.
> > Again, politely, I say
> > "NONSENSE!!! " There
> > are no more "parachurch ministries" that "tear down" the
> > true work of God
> >
> > than there are "false churches" and "false preachers" who
> > do the same.
> > Of
> > course, there are those who misuse the things of God to
> > manipulate God's
> > people for evil purposes. There have always been "Elmer
> > Gantry" types
> > who
> > con simple-minded people in churches. There are even some
> > IFB who are
> > quacks (just as there are some of other persuasions, too).
> > We recently
> > had
> > a young man arrested as a"Peeping Tom" in our community.
> He was an
> > associate/youth minister at a local IFB church.
> >
> > Parachurch ministries are just
> > as much part
> > of
> > the work of God today as any group that claims to be a "New
> > Testament
> > Church." There is in the Bible what is called the ministry
> > of "helps."
> > (1
> > Cor 12:28 " And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,
> > secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that
> > miracles, then gifts
> > of
> > healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.") God
> > "sets" them
> > in
> > the church and no man has the authority to take them out or
> > to discard
> > them. IMHO, parachurch ministries would be categorized
> > under the heading
> >
> > of "helps." They are not a substitute for the local
> > church, but they
> > complement and supplement the work and ministry of the
> > local church.
> > They
> > provide ministry in ways that many churches either do not
> or can not
> > provide.
> >
> > You said, Jesus Christ said He
> > would build
> > His
> > church and the gates of hell will not prevail. I do not
> > believe that the
> > Church of our Lord Jesus Christ have been a failure.
> > His churches are still
> winning the lost,
> > baptizing and discipling those who have trusted Jesus as
> > their personal
> > saviour.His churches are still sending out missionaries
> > around this world
> >
> > proclaiming His gospel and changing lives.
> > Jerry says... The Church that
> > Jesus spoke of
> >
> > here is the Body of Believers, past, present, and future,
> > which is made
> > up
> > of all saved people. This statement is NOT referring to
> > the local church
> >
> > on the corner, known as "first church," or whatever name is on the
> > building. There are "local churches" that have failed to
> > do the will of
> > God. There are many "local churches" that have rebelled
> > against the Word
> > and Will of God. There are many that have disbanded and
> > ceased to exist.
> >
> > Yes, there are many, of different denominations, who are
> > serving Christ,
> >
> > preaching the gospel and winning the lost to Christ. There
> > are many who
> > are
> > faithfully proclaiming the Word of Truth. But it is naive
> > to think that
> > every church that has the name "Baptist" on it is walking
> > in the full
> > will
> > of God.
> >
> > Jeffrey, you said,
> > "...parachurch ministries
> > were only interested in building their own kingdoms."
> > Perhaps this is true about
> > some, even as it
> > is
> > true about some IFB churches, and others (non IFB) too.
> > But you have no
> > justification for making a flat out statement about all
> "parachurch
> > ministries." It simply is not true. And you unfairly
> > malign many Christ
> > -loving, God-serving saints of His by saying such.
> >
> > I have only attended one PK
> > event. I can
> > testify that every speaker exalted Christ and called all
> men to be
> > faithful
> > in serving God through the local church.
> >
> > I would definitely, without
> > equivocation,
> > encourage all men to participate in PK events!!!
> >
> > Jerry L
> > Southside Baptist Church
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Jeff & Regena in Northern BC
> > To:
> > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 16,
> > 2004 2:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New
> > Question
> >
> >
> > Greetings Bro. Jerry,
> >
> >
> > > Jeffrey,
> > >
> > > Your "two cents Canadian"
> > does not add up
> >
> > .... You would be better off spending
> > > American currency.
> >
> >
> > I'll do better,
> >
> >
> > >
> > > You are trying to tell me
> > that parachurch
> >
> > ministries that will souls to Christ and exhort and
> > > encourage men and women to
> > fully follow
> > Christ are "parasites, feeding off the local
> > > church"?????
> >
> >
> > My good Brother, I am not
> > trying to tell
> > you
> > anything, just telling it like it is.
> >
> >
> > > Hogwash!!!! That is pure
> Nonsense!!!
> >
> >
> > Tell that to thousand of good
> > pastors who's
> >
> > churches have been destroyed by parachurch ministries.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Parachurch ministries are
> > taking up the
> > slack and doing ministry where the local church
> > > has failed and neglected
> > ministry. Yes, I
> >
> > said failed!!! The local church is failing large
> > > segments of population
> > right now... We (I
> >
> > am part of a local church) are in the process of
> > > losing another generation of young
> > people.
> > Statistics say the church loses about 80% of
> > > young people when they get
> > out of high
> > school.
> >
> >
> > Jesus Christ said He would
> > build His church
> >
> > and the gates of hell will not prevail. I do not believe
> > that the Church
> > of
> > our Lord Jesus Christ have been a failure.
> >
> >
> > His churches are still
> > winning the lost,
> > baptizing and discipling those who have trusted Jesus as
> > their personal
> > saviour.
> >
> >
> > His churches are still sending out
> > missionaries around this world proclaiming His gospel and
> > changing lives.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Praise God for the
> > missionary societies
> > who
> > have stirred the hearts of God's servants
> > > around the world to catch
> > fire with a
> > vision for reaching the unreached and telling the
> > > untold. They were
> faithful when most
> > churches were only interested in building their own
> > > kingdoms.
> >
> >
> > Praise God for New Testament
> > Churches who
> > have stirred the hearts of God's servants... etc...
> >
> >
> > ...parachurch ministries were only
> > interested
> > in building their own kingdoms.
> >
> >
> > > I would be very glad for
> > the men in my
> > church to miss a Sunday service to go to a PK
> > > meeting because I know that
> > they will
> > receive encouragement to dedicate themselves to
> > > Christ and when they return
> > to church
> > they
> > will be on fire for God!!! I have attended PK
> > > meetings and I know first
> > hand that the
> > speakers are bold in calling all men to follow
> > > Christ and be faithful
> > members of a local
> >
> > church.
> >
> >
> > The men at Spruceland
> Baptist receive
> > encouragement to dedicated themselves to Christ and return
> > to their homes
> >
> > and work places on fire for God.
> >
> >
> > > Your friends pastor
> should have made
> > arrangements for someone to fill his pulpit that day
> > > and led the men in his
> church in the
> > renewal service of PK.
> >
> >
> > My friend was the pastor, and
> > he knows
> > better
> > than to attend PK.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Jerry L
> > > Southside Baptist Church
> >
> >
> > Now how is that for a Federal
> > Reserve Note,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bro. Jeff Hallmark"
> >
> >
> > "Presenting the Prince of
> > Peace to Prince
> > George"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@associat
> > e.com<mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@associat
> > e.com<mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@associat
> > e.com<mailto:pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> >
> > things, charity."
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com<http://www.grisoft.com/>).
> > Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
> > << File: ATT00069.htm >> << File: Emoticon1.gif >>
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com<http://www.grisoft.com/>).
> > Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...<mailto:pastorsforum-uns
> > ubscribe@a
> > ssociate.com>
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all
> > things, charity."
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date:
> > 10/19/04 << File: ATT00020.htm >>
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > liberty; and in all things, charity."
> >
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
>
> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> liberty; and in all things, charity."
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
>
> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> liberty; and in all things, charity."
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all
things, charity."
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04