There was a time when the Church was universal, however it stopped when
they were scattered because of persecution. Then it became Churches.
Mike Cantrell
-----Original Message-----
From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:44 AM
To: pastorsforum@...
Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
Mike,
Actually, the Universal Church began long before the Reformation. I
know some early creeds did have the teaching in it. In fact, it is
before the Catholic Church but the Catholic church took it to mean they
were the universal church. Yet, it is an old statement.
------------------------------------
Wallers Baptist Church
Pastor
derick@...
PO Box 95
Partlow VA 22534
tel: 540-582-5703
mobile: 540-894-1772
www.thedickensfamily.org
------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:25 AM
> To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
>
>
> Derick, the word Ecclesia is always translated as a called
> out assembly.
> The word church never appears in scripture in the original,
> it is always
> the word translated, assembly.
> There is never a time in Koine Greek nor Classical that you
> will find the
> word eccleisa meaning something different than a called out
> and assembled
> body. If this is so, then the Church must be a called and
> assembled body
> of baptized believers. You cannot have that with an
> invisible universal
> church. I know you know all this, but don't understand why
> many insist on
> a invisible body. . I think I am right when I say that this
> doctrine only
> came about during the reformation period. If so, then it is a made up
> doctrine because the Catholic Church excommunicated those
> that protested
> and left them without a church. Therefore, the ideal of the
> invisible
> universal church was birthed.
>
> Mike Cantrell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:36 PM
> To: pastorsforum@...
> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
>
> The same way you can have a person with no body, the Holy
> Spirit is my example. Secondly, The Father is said to have a
> body with hands and the like. Yet, we know He is Spirit and
> does not have a body like us. That simple. Which is the
> point I am making. Yet, your contention assumes the
> universal church has no body. It does not have a location or
> building... But it does have a body, all the people who make
> it up. A body is not a location nor is it a building, it is
> people. The universal church is made up of people... Just
> like the local.
>
> ------------------------------------
> Wallers Baptist Church
> Pastor
> derick@...
> PO Box 95
> Partlow VA 22534
> tel: 540-582-5703
> mobile: 540-894-1772
> www.thedickensfamily.org
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:06 PM
> > To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> >
> > Derick read the last of your post. How can you have a body
> of Christ
> > with no body? Ergo, a invisible body of Christ is an oxymoron.
> >
> >
> > Mike Cantrell
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:52 PM
> > To: pastorsforum@...
> > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> >
> > The original post is that the body, namely the body of
> Christ that is
> > the church, is physical. My mention is that the Holy Spirit is a
> > spirit but is a person of the trinity. David made the
> illustration of
> > the wind, but you called that a force. The Spirit is not a
> force but
> > a person. Thus, I concluded that in order to discount him
> for using
> > the wind illustration you would have difficulty discounting
> the Spirit
> > by your same logic you discounted the wind... For the Spirit
> > is not a force but a person... With no body.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Wallers Baptist Church
> > Pastor
> > derick@...
> > PO Box 95
> > Partlow VA 22534
> > tel: 540-582-5703
> > mobile: 540-894-1772
> > www.thedickensfamily.org
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:38 PM
> > > To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > >
> > >
> > > Derick, I cannot understand the connection. The Holy
> > Spirit does not
> > > possess a body. That is why he is a Spirit. A person yes,
> > a person
> > > manifested in bodily form, no.
> > >
> > > Mike Cantrell
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:07 PM
> > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > My point exactly. Yet, He is a person and thus the phrase used
> > > about the church not "seeing" it as in the universal is validated.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > Wallers Baptist Church
> > > Pastor
> > > derick@...
> > > PO Box 95
> > > Partlow VA 22534
> > > tel: 540-582-5703
> > > mobile: 540-894-1772
> > > www.thedickensfamily.org
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:12 PM
> > > > To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have never seen a spirit. Holy or otherwise.
> > > >
> > > > Mike Cantrell
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Derick Dickens [SMTP:Derick@...]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 5:12 PM
> > > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > >
> > > > You ever see the Holy Spirit?
> > > >
> > > > Derick
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > Wallers Baptist Church
> > > > Pastor
> > > > derick@...
> > > > PO Box 95
> > > > Partlow VA 22534
> > > > tel: 540-582-5703
> > > > mobile: 540-894-1772
> > > > www.thedickensfamily.org
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Mike Cantrell [mailto:mcantrell@...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:37 AM
> > > > > To: 'pastorsforum@...'
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David, David, David. A body signifies substance and mass.
> > > > A man as
> > > > > learned as you ought to realize wind is the effect of
> air moving
> > > > > from a high pressure to a lower pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Cantrell
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: DAVID POWELL [SMTP:dpowellaz@...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:26 AM
> > > > > To: pastorsforum@...
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone ever "see" the wind?
> > > > >
> > > > > David Powell, Senior Pastor
> > > > > Cotton Lane Community Church
> > > > > Waddell, AZ
> > > > > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!
> > > > > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!)
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Mike Cantrell<mailto:mcantrell@...>
> > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > 'pastorsforum@...'<mailto:'pastorsforum@...'>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:33 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone ever seen an invisible body?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Cantrell
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: J [SMTP:jelewis@...]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:02 AM
> > > > > To:
> > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > > David W,
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you see the Body of Christ????
> > > > > How many "bodies of Christ" are there?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry L
> > > > > Southside Baptist
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:11 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yea, you said it but you must have meant to say,
> > > "just because a
> > > > > few SBC
> > > > > churches believe in the invisible body theory it must
> > > > exist." Opps.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: DAVID POWELL [mailto:dpowellaz@...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:11 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess the way I answer that is this, just because
> > > they think
> > > > > you can
> > > > > lose your salvation does not make it so! I guess it
> > is sort of
> > > > > like just
> > > > >
> > > > > because the IFB churches deny the church universal
> > doesn't mean
> > > > > that it
> > > > > does not exist! Oppps, did I say that?
> > > > >
> > > > > David Powell, Senior Pastor
> > > > > Cotton Lane Community Church
> > > > > Waddell, AZ
> > > > > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!
> > > > > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!)
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 7:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here you go J. I'll help you out in your further
> > > study of
> > > > > Bible
> > > > > doctrine concerning the AG. (Assembly of God). This
> > > verifies my
> > > > > statement
> > > > > below which is not erroneous, outlandish, accusing
> > falsely, but
> > > > > shows it is
> > > > > you who seem to lack understanding of this group. Perhaps
> > > > > that helps
> > > > > explain why you as a Baptist could join in an evangelistic
> > > > > campaign with
> > > > > them. If not, please explain.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is from their official web site:
> > > > > http://ag.org/top/beliefs/ch<http://ag.org/top/beliefs/ch>
> > > > > ristian_doctrines/gendoct_09_security.cfm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > They say--
> > > > > Security of the Believer (Backsliding)
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the Assemblies of God position on the
> > > > security of the
> > > > > believer's salvation?
> > > > >
> > > > > The Assemblies of God has taken a strong stand
> > > against the
> > > > > teaching
> > > > >
> > > > > that God's sovereign will completely overrides man's
> > > free will to
> > > > > accept
> > > > > and serve Him. In view of this we believe it is
> possible for a
> > > > > person once
> > > > > saved to turn from God and be lost again.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:07 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David W,
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, No , the AG isn't such a group. They
> > > deny the
> > > > > Biblical
> > > > >
> > > > > doctrine of eternal life or everlasting life, as far
> > as I know.
> > > > >
> > > > > David, for you to say such as this demonstrates
> > > that you
> > > > > have no
> > > > > knowledge about the AOG.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps It would be wise for you to find out
> > > what you are
> > > > > talking
> > > > >
> > > > > about before you make outlandish statements accusing them
> > > > of denying
> > > > > Biblical doctrines. Making judgments based on
> incomplete or
> > > > > erroneous
> > > > > information can prove to be embarrassing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why don't you write PoPs and ask him if the AOG
> > > deny the
> > > > > Biblical
> > > > >
> > > > > doctrine of eternal life or everlasting life, and see
> > > if he agrees
> > > > > with
> > > > > your appraisal......
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry L
> > > > > Southside Baptist Church
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:54 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No , the AG isn't such a group. They deny
> > > the Biblical
> > > > > doctrine
> > > > > of eternal life or everlasting life, as far as I know.
> > > Plus, they
> > > > > formed a
> > > > > new group. There have always been believers of NT
> > doctrine down
> > > > > through
> > > > > history--Novatianists, Donatists, Albigensians, and
> more, and
> > > > > then Bible
> > > > > Believing Baptist! I do not contend that Baptists are
> > the only
> > > > > believers in
> > > > > the world today. I only say they are the only
> group who can
> > > > > trace their
> > > > > history through doctrine and practice back to the early
> > > > > church. Even the
> > > > >
> > > > > enemies of Baptist state this as I have posted on
> this forum
> > > > > before. I
> > > > > believe it was in answer to Steve (you can't sit on the
> > > > side forever
> > > > > without getting dragged in to the fray) when he asked
> > > > about Baptist
> > > > > history.
> > > > > David W
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:21 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, What I and others have said is
> > > that the same
> > > > > faith
> > > > > and practice which characterized the early New Testament
> > > > church is
> > > > > believed
> > > > > and practiced today by the people called Baptists.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are many different churches that do
> > > not use the
> > > > > nametag
> > > > >
> > > > > "Baptist" who have the same faith and practice which
> > > characterized
> > > > > the New
> > > > > Testament Church. The Assembly of God, for
> example, is one
> > > > > such group.
> > > > > BTW, they, too, baptize by immersion. They also
> > hold to many
> > > > > of the same
> > > > > beliefs that we call "Baptist Distinctives."
> > > > >
> > > > > There are churches today who carry names
> > > that are more
> > > > > Biblical
> > > > > than Baptist: Church of Christ, Church of God, Church
> > > of God in
> > > > > Christ,
> > > > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still, each and every one was started by
> > a man or a
> > > > > woman.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry L
> > > > > Southside Baptist Church
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@assoc
> > > > > iate.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:50 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No, I don't think I did. I don't believe all
> > > > > Christians of
> > > > >
> > > > > all times are in the church. Some chose not to be--for
> > > whatever
> > > > > reason. I
> > > > > do believe that all the truly born again and saved
> > are children
> > > > > of God and
> > > > > will be in heaven. In fact, some are already
> there. But the
> > > > > church is a
> > > > >
> > > > > different issue.
> > > > > Of the over 100 times church or churches
> > > or similar
> > > > > is used
> > > > >
> > > > > the local church by far is in view. In fact, only
> > > about 2 times
> > > > > is the
> > > > > church mentioned that is not local and then it is the
> > church in
> > > > > prospect
> > > > > which will be gathered in heaven when the Lord calls it
> > > > from the 4
> > > > > corners
> > > > > of the world. Since you say that many, many times
> > the world is
> > > > > not a
> > > > > reference to a local congregation, are you then saying
> > > that many,
> > > > > many
> > > > > times it is? (if so, does that make it more than one?)
> > > Jesus does
> > > > > refer
> > > > >
> > > > > to "the churches" and means local congregations but
> > > they are still
> > > > > His
> > > > > church. You and others who resist the name Baptist are
> > > the only
> > > > > ones who
> > > > >
> > > > > keep saying Baptist is not in Scripture. I've not read
> > > > > any post that
> > > > > says it is but have read numerous posts that keep bring
> > > up that it
> > > > > isn't.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no need to argue against something that
> > > doesn't exist.
> > > > > What I
> > > > > and others have said is that the same faith and
> practice which
> > > > > characterized the early New Testament church is
> believed and
> > > > > practiced
> > > > > today by the people called Baptists. As you noted,
> the name
> > > > > Baptist is
> > > > > relatively new. Only about 400 years, more or
> less. But the
> > > > > faith and
> > > > > practice is about 2000 years, more or less. So, if we
> > > > are going to
> > > > > discuss
> > > > > "the name" then we are probably on the same page.
> > > > > David Warner
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: DAVID POWELL
> [mailto:dpowellaz@...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:08 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The church was started by Jesus Christ
> > > during His
> > > > > earthly
> > > > >
> > > > > ministry. The local church I pastor was organized as
> > > part of that
> > > > > church
> > > > >
> > > > > subsequent to that. Today, we are still a part of the
> > > church that
> > > > > Jesus is
> > > > > building as He continues to do from the days His
> > > earthly ministry.
> > > > > Therefore, we are the church Jesus started.
> > > > >
> > > > > David, do you realize that you just
> > gave one of
> > > > > the best
> > > > > explanations of what we call the "Universal"
> church. Or the
> > > > > "church" that
> > > > > includes all Christians of all times! Are you
> aware that of
> > > > > the 77 times
> > > > >
> > > > > the word "church" is used in the New Testament that
> > > many, many of
> > > > > them are
> > > > > not a reference to a local congregation. If Jesus
> > had intended
> > > > > it to refer
> > > > > to only a local congregation then he would have
> needed to use
> > > > > the plural of
> > > > > the noun 'ekklesia' since there is not just one local
> > church but
> > > > > thousands
> > > > > if not millions. The term, "Baptist Church" is a
> relatively
> > > > > new term in
> > > > > the historical scheme of things. The church is
> referred to in
> > > > > the New
> > > > > Testament as the Church of God 8 times, Church of
> the Living
> > > > > God once, it
> > > > >
> > > > > is referred to as the Churches of Christ once and it is
> > > referred
> > > > > to as the
> > > > > church in a specific town but NEVER is it referred to as
> > > > a "Baptist"
> > > > > Church. That's scriptural!
> > > > > God Bless
> > > > >
> > > > > David Powell, Senior Pastor
> > > > > Cotton Lane Community Church
> > > > > Waddell, AZ
> > > > > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua!
> > > > > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!)
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:42 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE:
> New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:53 AM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE:
> > New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David W,
> > > > >
> > > > > Parachurch ministries work
> > > alongside the local
> > > > > church
> > > > >
> > > > > to help Christian serve God and reach people for Christ.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO, parachurch is not equivalent
> > > > with the local
> > > > > church, yet it is part of the "Church" in the broad
> > > sense of the
> > > > > term, all
> > > > > the redeemed of the Lord (which I already know you do not
> > > > > believe in).
> > > > > Parachurch ministries are made up of Christians who
> > > are led into
> > > > > ministry
> > > > > by Christ. They do works of ministry in ways that
> > are usually
> > > > > not being
> > > > > done by the local church.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why do you think they can't do this
> > > through or
> > > > > under
> > > > > the oversight and authority of the local church?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pastor Bob Thune in an article titled
> > > > "Church &
> > > > > Parachurch" said, "When I say "parachurch," I mean
> > the numerous
> > > > > organizations that exist alongside the church to
> > facilitate its
> > > > > mission -
> > > > >
> > > > > groups like Campus Crusade and Focus on the Family and
> > > the Billy
> > > > > Graham
> > > > > Evangelistic Association. "
> > > > >
> > > > > David, are you against evangelistic
> > > > > associations and
> > > > > missionary societies? Are you against gospel singing
> > > groups that
> > > > > travel
> > > > > across the country singing for the Lord? Are you
> > > against churches
> > > > > "associating" together to encourage missions? The "Baptist
> > > > > Association"
> > > > > and the "Southern Baptist Convention" are both, in
> a sense,
> > > > > parachurch
> > > > > ministries that support and enlarge the ministry of
> the local
> > > > > church. Is
> > > > >
> > > > > not the "BBFI" something similar?
> > > > >
> > > > > No, I'm not against them. But they
> > > should be
> > > > > under the
> > > > > authority of a local church and accountable to it.
> > If they are
> > > > > not, they
> > > > >
> > > > > have NO Scriptural authority to even exist in the Name
> > > of Christ.
> > > > > Maybe
> > > > > they could call themselves good social agencies for the
> > > > > self-improvement of
> > > > > mankind.
> > > > >
> > > > > David, I asked you to "please
> name me one
> > > > > local church
> > > > > that was started by Jesus and not by a man." You said,
> > > > > The answer to your next to the last
> > > > question is
> > > > > Baptist. David, you STILL have NOT answered the
> > > > question asked.
> > > > > Every
> > > > > local Baptist church was started by a man (or men).
> "Baptist"
> > > > > describes a
> > > > > belief system, or a type of churches that ascribe
> to certain
> > > > > doctrines. A
> > > > > "Baptist" church is no more started by Christ than a
> > > > > "Church of Christ"
> > > > > or
> > > > > a Presbyterian church is. They are all started and
> > > > > organized by PEOPLE.
> > > > >
> > > > > In this statement above, you do err
> > > and show
> > > > > your lack
> > > > > of understanding historical facts. The church was
> started by
> > > > > whom?____________________ You keep trying to go to the
> > > > > name and the
> > > > > name
> > > > > was give to this group of believers by those who
> hated them.
> > > > > They hated
> > > > > them because of the Biblical doctrine they held to
> even under
> > > > > sentence of
> > > > >
> > > > > death. The single most distinguishing
> characteristic of these
> > > > > believes
> > > > > were that they insisted on baptizing those who made a
> > > profession
> > > > > of faith
> > > > >
> > > > > and this was "mean spirited" and "hateful" and
> "arrogant" and
> > > > > hated by
> > > > > those of both Protestant and Catholic belief because
> > it didn't
> > > > > recognize
> > > > > their "baptism" as Biblically valid. They started
> > > calling these
> > > > > Bible
> > > > > Believers "rebaptizers" or Anabaptists. Today they are
> > > generally
> > > > > just
> > > > > called Baptist for the most part. You are correct in the
> > > > > "Baptist" is not
> > > > > a church but you must understand that those people who are
> > > > > called Baptist
> > > > >
> > > > > hold to the same doctrine and practice that the early
> > > church did
> > > > > and that
> > > > >
> > > > > is the Church that Jesus started. Therefore, my answer was
> > > > > correct. I did
> > > > > give an answer. You dismissed it with the claim
> that I STILL
> > > > > had NOT
> > > > > answered when indeed I had.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, "the Church of Christ" is THE
> > > church that
> > > > > Christ
> > > > >
> > > > > Himself started. Don't you know that every other
> > > church is "man -
> > > > > made
> > > > > religion"???? If you are Baptist, Methodist,
> > > > > Presbyterian, etc, then
> > > > > you
> > > > > are part of "man-made religion." If any name OTHER
> than "the
> > > > > Church of
> > > > > Christ" is on the church, then it is not Christ's Church.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chapter and verse please.
> > > > Documentation please.
> > > > >
> > > > > And if you have been baptized
> by anyone
> > > > > OTHER than a
> > > > > minister in "the Church of Christ" you are not "New
> Testament
> > > > > baptized."
> > > > > Now, of course I do NOT believe or accept the
> things I just
> > > > > stated above
> > > > > in this paragraph. I have heard them said, though, by
> > > > > people who think
> > > > > their church is the ONLY true church. This is error. This
> > > > > is wrong.
> > > > > This
> > > > > is perverted teaching of religion that is not substantiated
> > > > > in the Bible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here you are confusing the Church of
> > > > Christ with
> > > > > Baptist Church.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is also perverted and wrong to
> > > say that
> > > > > "the
> > > > > Baptist church" was started by Christ more so than other
> > > > > denominational
> > > > > churches or independent church. Every local church,
> > including
> > > > > yours, is
> > > > > started by a man (or woman)!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > The church was started by Jesus
> > > Christ during
> > > > > His
> > > > > earthly ministry. The local church I pastor was
> > > organized as part
> > > > > of that
> > > > > church subsequent to that. Today, we are still a
> part of the
> > > > > church that
> > > > >
> > > > > Jesus is building as He continues to do from the days
> > > His earthly
> > > > > ministry.
> > > > > Therefore, we are the church Jesus started.
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe Jesus instituted marriage,
> > > > government,
> > > > > church. There is no universal visible or invisible
> > > marriage but
> > > > > only
> > > > > local individual marriages
> which comprise
> > > > > marriage
> > > > > universally. But each man is to have his own wife!
> > (ask your
> > > > > wife how she
> > > > > would feel about you partaking with all wives
> because you are
> > > > > part of the
> > > > >
> > > > > worldwide invisible/visible marriage--that should help
> > > you clarify
> > > > > some
> > > > > issues) There is no universal visible or invisible
> church but
> > > > > only local
> > > > >
> > > > > individual congregations of believers which will
> comprise the
> > > > > church when
> > > > >
> > > > > gathered in heaven for the marriage feast. Therefore,
> > > one should
> > > > > not try
> > > > >
> > > > > to partake with other "bodies" than the one God gave
> > > him. We ought
> > > > > to
> > > > > remain monogamous in marriage as well as church. The
> > > same could
> > > > > be said
> > > > > for government. Now, I think even those who don't
> > believe this
> > > > > understand
> > > > > that there is coming a day when there will be a
> > > one-world-church
> > > > > and I
> > > > > suspect a one-world-marriage in that marriage will not mean
> > > > > anything and
> > > > > for all practical purposes will not exist and we see
> > > the perverts
> > > > > calling
> > > > >
> > > > > for that now. The clamor for one church, one
> > > government, one or
> > > > > none
> > > > > marriage will only increase in these later days.
> > > > > Whew! That's enough for now.
> > > > >
> > > > > David W
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry L
> > > > > Southside Baptist Church
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 18,
> 2004 11:14 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE:
> > > New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > First, the term "parachurch" has
> > > > been used for
> > > > > several days (perhaps weeks) on this forum and this is
> > > the first
> > > > > time I
> > > > > have seen any ask for a definition. But, here it is.
> > > The word is
> > > > > made up
> > > > > of two words. "para" and "church". Para is from the
> > Greek and
> > > > > means
> > > > > "beside". So when used together with church it would mean
> > > > > "beside the
> > > > > church." The parachurch is NOT the church. It is
> NOT equal
> > > > > with the
> > > > > church. It can not and will not replace the church. Jesus
> > > > > didn't say
> > > > > "upon this rock I will build my church until the parachurch
> > > > > comes along to
> > > > > do what the church can't do or until it fails." Since the
> > > > > parachurch is
> > > > > beside the church or outside the church it is not God's
> > > > > instrument to carry
> > > > > to Gospel and make and baptize believers. That,
> > > > gentlemen, is the
> > > > > mission
> > > > > of the church. The mission of the church IS missions.
> > > > GO, Teach,
> > > > > Baptist,
> > > > > Teach. I still believe it. Now, if it's outside the
> > > church and
> > > > > the church
> > > > > is the Bride of Christ, what does that make a parachurch?
> > > > > The answer to your next to the last
> > > > > question is
> > > > > Baptist. You asked me name one. Whether it is
> > believed or not
> > > > > has no
> > > > > bearing on the truth of the answer. Jesus started
> > His church.
> > > > > His Bride
> > > > >
> > > > > will be gathered unto Him some day soon, I believe.
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: J [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 18,
> > 2004 10:28 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE:
> > > > New Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David W,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, Why do you think it
> > is an IFB
> > > > > view?
> > > > > Could it be a Jeff view? Could it be a Canadian view?
> > > Could it
> > > > > be a
> > > > > Texan view? Could it be a Biblical view? What is your
> > > basis for
> > > > > making
> > > > > such a statement? Experience. The statement was:
> I say your
> > > > > perspective
> > > > >
> > > > > is distorted by an IFB view that condemns anyone that
> > > is not part
> > > > > of your
> > > > >
> > > > > group, or has any fellowship or joint participation with
> > > > > Christians from
> > > > > other faith traditions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, Is this ("IFB have a
> > > > strong bias
> > > > > and/or
> > > > > prejudice against Believers from different denominations
> > > > associating
> > > > > together for Christian ministry of any kind." ) a
> statement of
> > > > > opinion
> > > > > based on experience or do you have documentation for such a
> > > > > statement? Is
> > > > > it a prejudicial statement or what? Same answer,
> experience.
> > > > > I never
> > > > > encounter the same attitudes with other faith traditions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, what is meant by "faith
> > > > > traditions"?
> > > > > Different Christian denominations.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There are "quacks" in all "faith
> > > > > traditions,"
> > > > > including Independent Fundamentalist Baptist and
> > > Southern Baptist.
> > > > > I was
> > > > >
> > > > > not picking on any one group. My comments were in the
> > > context of a
> > > > > defense
> > > > > against Jeff's condemnation of all parachurch ministries.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, I believe it is
> an error to
> > > > > equate
> > > > > parachurch ministries started by men with the church
> > started by
> > > > > Jesus.
> > > > > David, please name me one local church that was
> > > started by Jesus
> > > > > and not
> > > > > by a man. Parachurch ministries are just as much
> started by
> > > > > Christ as
> > > > > First Baptist Church. Both are started by men who
> are led by
> > > > > Christ and
> > > > > the Holy Spirit to do what hey do.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David, what does "parachurch
> > " mean????
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry L
> > > > >
> > > > > Southside Baptist Church
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Pastor David Warner
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 18,
> > 2004 9:25 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE:
> [PastorsForum] RE: New
> > > > > Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I've got some questions.
> > > > >
> > > > > J, you said, "...your
> perspective is
> > > > > distorted by
> > > > > an IFB view.........." Why do you think it is an
> IFB view?
> > > > > Could it be a
> > > > > Jeff view? Could it be a Canadian view? Could it be a
> > > > > Texan view? Could
> > > > >
> > > > > it be a Biblical view? What is your basis for
> making such a
> > > > > statement?
> > > > > You then said, "IFB have a
> > > strong bias
> > > > > and/or
> > > > > prejudice against Believers from different denominations
> > > > associating
> > > > > together for Christian ministry of any kind." Is this
> > > a statement
> > > > > of
> > > > > opinion based on experience or do you have documentation
> > > > for such a
> > > > > statement? Is it a prejudicial statement or what?
> There was
> > > > > nothing cited
> > > > > as evidence. By the way, what is meant by "faith
> traditions"?
> > > > > Surely you would agree "false
> > > > > churches" and
> > > > > "false preachers" who tear down true works of God
> are not the
> > > > > standard for
> > > > > comparison with anything, much less parachurch ministries.
> > > > > When you say
> > > > > "there are even some IFB who are quacks..." would you also
> > > > > say there are
> > > > > some SBC who are quacks. Why pick on the IFB? You site an
> > > > > example what
> > > > > an
> > > > > associate/youth minister of an IFB church was arrested
> > > > for being a
> > > > > "Peeping
> > > > > Tom." Surely that is not your defense for parachurch
> > > ministries
> > > > > operating
> > > > > outside the oversight of a local church? If it
> your view or
> > > > > perception
> > > > > that "Peeping Toms" are the norm or the prevalent
> > > characteristic
> > > > > of IFB?
> > > > > I believe it is an error
> to equate
> > > > > parachurch
> > > > > ministries started by men with the church started by Jesus.
> > > > > "Helps" are
> > > > > individual gifts to complete the body, the church, not
> > > parachurch.
> > > > > From
> > > > > the verse you cited you can clearly see it says "in the
> > > church."
> > > > > In fact,
> > > > > you argue that and then make the opposite statement.
> > It's a bit
> > > > > confusing.
> > > > > Then you go off into Protestant doctrine and of
> > course you know
> > > > > that from
> > > > > a historic Baptist position I believe that too is
> > > error. You make
> > > > > statements are not supported by Scripture but from the
> > > > tradition of
> > > > > Whitsett.
> > > > > Well, just some thoughts. All
> > > > the above,
> > > > > except
> > > > > the quotes," are my opinion and I approved this message.
> > > > > David Warner
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: J
> > [mailto:jelewis@...]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 18,
> > > 2004 7:18 PM
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:past
> > > > > orsforum@...>
> > > > > Subject: Re:
> > [PastorsForum] RE: New
> > > > > Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeffrey,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please forgive me for delay in
> > > > > responding to
> > > > > your previous post. I have been very busy. My thoughts
> > > regarding
> > > > > your
> > > > > comments follow:
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, "...just telling
> > > it like it
> > > > > is. "
> > > > > No, I say your perspective is
> > > > > distorted by an
> > > > > IFB view that condemns anyone that is not part of
> your group,
> > > > > or has any
> > > > > fellowship or joint participation with Christians from
> > > other faith
> > > > > traditions. IFB have a strong bias and /or
> prejudice against
> > > > > Believers
> > > > > from different denominations associating together for
> > Christian
> > > > > ministry of
> > > > > any kind.
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, Tell that to
> > > > thousand of good
> > > > > pastors who's churches have been destroyed by parachurch
> > > > ministries.
> > > > > Again, politely, I say
> > > "NONSENSE!!! "
> > > > > There
> > > > > are no more "parachurch ministries" that "tear down"
> > > the true work
> > > > > of God
> > > > >
> > > > > than there are "false churches" and "false preachers"
> > > who do the
> > > > > same. Of
> > > > > course, there are those who misuse the things of God to
> > > > > manipulate God's
> > > > > people for evil purposes. There have always been
> > "Elmer Gantry"
> > > > > types who
> > > > > con simple-minded people in churches. There are
> even some IFB
> > > > > who are
> > > > > quacks (just as there are some of other
> persuasions, too). We
> > > > > recently had
> > > > > a young man arrested as a"Peeping Tom" in our community.
> > > > He was an
> > > > > associate/youth minister at a local IFB church.
> > > > >
> > > > > Parachurch ministries are
> > > just as much
> > > > > part of
> > > > > the work of God today as any group that claims to be a "New
> > > > > Testament
> > > > > Church." There is in the Bible what is called the
> > ministry of
> > > > > "helps." (1
> > > > > Cor 12:28 " And God hath set some in the church,
> > first apostles,
> > > > > secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that
> miracles,
> > > > > then gifts of
> > > > > healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.") God
> > > > > "sets" them
> > > > > in
> > > > > the church and no man has the authority to take them out or
> > > > > to discard
> > > > > them. IMHO, parachurch ministries would be categorized
> > > > > under the heading
> > > > >
> > > > > of "helps." They are not a substitute for the local
> > > church, but
> > > > > they
> > > > > complement and supplement the work and ministry of
> the local
> > > > > church. They
> > > > > provide ministry in ways that many churches either do not
> > > > or can not
> > > > > provide.
> > > > >
> > > > > You said, Jesus Christ
> > > said He would
> > > > > build His
> > > > > church and the gates of hell will not prevail. I do
> > not believe
> > > > > that the
> > > > > Church of our Lord Jesus Christ have been a failure.
> > > > > His churches are still
> > > > winning the lost,
> > > > > baptizing and discipling those who have trusted
> Jesus as their
> > > > > personal
> > > > > saviour.His churches are still sending out
> > missionaries around
> > > > > this world
> > > > >
> > > > > proclaiming His gospel and changing lives.
> > > > > Jerry says... The Church
> > > that Jesus
> > > > > spoke of
> > > > >
> > > > > here is the Body of Believers, past, present, and
> > > future, which is
> > > > > made up
> > > > > of all saved people. This statement is NOT
> referring to the
> > > > > local church
> > > > >
> > > > > on the corner, known as "first church," or whatever
> > > name is on the
> > > > > building. There are "local churches" that have failed
> > > to do the
> > > > > will of
> > > > > God. There are many "local churches" that have
> > rebelled against
> > > > > the Word
> > > > > and Will of God. There are many that have disbanded
> > > and ceased to
> > > > > exist.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, there are many, of different denominations, who
> > > are serving
> > > > > Christ,
> > > > >
> > > > > preaching the gospel and winning the lost to
> Christ. There are
> > > > > many who are
> > > > > faithfully proclaiming the Word of Truth. But it
> is naive to
> > > > > think that
> > > > > every church that has the name "Baptist" on it is
> walking in
> > > > > the full will
> > > > > of God.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeffrey, you said,
> "...parachurch
> > > > > ministries
> > > > > were only interested in building their own kingdoms."
> > > > > Perhaps this is true about
> > > some, even
> > > > > as it is
> > > > > true about some IFB churches, and others (non IFB)
> > too. But you
> > > > > have no
> > > > > justification for making a flat out statement about all
> > > > "parachurch
> > > > > ministries." It simply is not true. And you unfairly
> > > malign many
> > > > > Christ
> > > > > -loving, God-serving saints of His by saying such.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have only attended one PK
> > > event. I
> > > > > can
> > > > > testify that every speaker exalted Christ and called all
> > > > men to be
> > > > > faithful
> > > > > in serving God through the local church.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would definitely, without
> > > > > equivocation,
> > > > > encourage all men to participate in PK events!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry L
> > > > > Southside Baptist Church
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Jeff & Regena in
> > Northern BC
> > > > > To:
> > > > > pastorsforum@...<mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, October
> > 16, 2004
> > > > > 2:06 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re:
> > > [PastorsForum] RE: New
> > > > > Question
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Greetings Bro. Jerry,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Jeffrey,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your "two cents
> > > Canadian" does not
> > > > > add up
> > > > >
> > > > > .... You would be better off spending
> > > > > > American currency.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll do better,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are trying to
> tell me that
> > > > > parachurch
> > > > >
> > > > > ministries that will souls to Christ and exhort and
> > > > > > encourage men and women
> > > to fully
> > > > > follow
> > > > > Christ are "parasites, feeding off the local
> > > > > > church"?????
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My good Brother, I am not
> > > trying to
> > > > > tell you
> > > > > anything, just telling it like it is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hogwash!!!! That is pure
> > > > Nonsense!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tell that to thousand of good
> > > > > pastors who's
> > > > >
> > > > > churches have been destroyed by parachurch ministries.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Parachurch ministries
> > > are taking
> > > > > up the
> > > > > slack and doing ministry where the local church
> > > > > > has failed and
> > > neglected ministry.
> > > > > Yes, I
> > > > >
> > > > > said failed!!! The local church is failing large
> > > > > > segments of
> population right
> > > > > now... We (I
> > > > >
> > > > > am part of a local church) are in the process of
> > > > > > losing another
> > > generation of young
> > > > > people.
> > > > > Statistics say the church loses about 80% of
> > > > > > young people when they
> > > get out of
> > > > > high
> > > > > school.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jesus Christ said He
> > > would build His
> > > > > church
> > > > >
> > > > > and the gates of hell will not prevail. I do not
> > > believe that the
> > > > > Church of
> > > > > our Lord Jesus Christ have been a failure.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > His churches are still
> > > winning the
> > > > > lost,
> > > > > baptizing and discipling those who have trusted
> Jesus as their
> > > > > personal
> > > > > saviour.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > His churches are still
> > sending out
> > > > > missionaries around this world proclaiming His gospel
> > > and changing
> > > > > lives.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Praise God for the
> missionary
> > > > > societies who
> > > > > have stirred the hearts of God's servants
> > > > > > around the world to
> catch fire
> > > > > with a
> > > > > vision for reaching the unreached and telling the
> > > > > > untold. They were
> > > > faithful when most
> > > > > churches were only interested in building their own
> > > > > > kingdoms.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Praise God for New Testament
> > > > > Churches who
> > > > > have stirred the hearts of God's servants... etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ...parachurch ministries
> > > were only
> > > > > interested
> > > > > in building their own kingdoms.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I would be very glad
> > > for the men
> > > > > in my
> > > > > church to miss a Sunday service to go to a PK
> > > > > > meeting because I know
> > > that they
> > > > > will
> > > > > receive encouragement to dedicate themselves to
> > > > > > Christ and when
> they return to
> > > > > church they
> > > > > will be on fire for God!!! I have attended PK
> > > > > > meetings and I know
> first hand
> > > > > that the
> > > > > speakers are bold in calling all men to follow
> > > > > > Christ and be
> faithful members
> > > > > of a local
> > > > >
> > > > > church.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The men at Spruceland
> > > > Baptist receive
> > > > > encouragement to dedicated themselves to Christ and
> return to
> > > > > their homes
> > > > >
> > > > > and work places on fire for God.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Your friends pastor
> > > > should have made
> > > > > arrangements for someone to fill his pulpit that day
> > > > > > and led the men in his
> > > > church in the
> > > > > renewal service of PK.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My friend was the
> pastor, and he
> > > > > knows better
> > > > > than to attend PK.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jerry L
> > > > > > Southside Baptist Church
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Now how is that for a Federal
> > > > > Reserve Note,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bro. Jeff Hallmark"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Presenting the Prince of
> > > Peace to
> > > > > Prince
> > > > > George"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
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> > > > > ssociate.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > > liberty; and
> > > > > in all
> > > > >
> > > > > things, charity."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > > liberty; and
> > > > > in all
> > > > >
> > > > > things, charity."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > > liberty; and
> > > > > in all
> > > > >
> > > > > things, charity."
> > > > >
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> > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > > liberty; and
> > > > > in all
> > > > >
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> > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > > liberty; and
> > > > > in all
> > > > >
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> > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> > > liberty; and
> > > > > in all
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> > > liberty; and
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> > all things, charity."
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> >
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>
>
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"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all
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---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/04