Bro. Bill, You write: I take exception to the statement that God chose Man before the foundations of the World. (Steve) So does this mean you take exception to this?: Ephesians 1:4-6 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, And this?: Titus 1:1-2 according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, Then you write: > I dont think God ever planned that people would live on earth. He had 1 man, Adam, >> and that was it. Adam couldnt find a suitable companion and was not >> complete. Then, God thought of Eve and the natural process of >> reproduction began But what about this? Genesis 1:26-28 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." How can God give Adam the command to be fruitful and multiply and not have Eve in mind? Then you ask: > if there are those predestine for Heaven and Hell......Why do >> we try to save people? Why the Great Commission? And I respond: Because God has commanded that we do so and because we do not know who the elect of God are. Consider the charge God gave Paul Titus 1:1-3 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; (I am preaching on this passage tomorrow BTW). The purpose of Paul's preaching as an Apostle was that the elect of God might come to faith and an acknowledgement of the truth. Then you add: > Ill stay with Eph 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 and try to get people to come to Him as earthly >> as that may seem to the TULIPs. That's great. Eph. 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 are excellent. But we also have to consider Ephesians 1:4,5 before we get to Ephesians 2 and Romans 9:15-23 befoe we get to Romans 10. You can woo all you want but if the Spirit does not quicken the heart and draw the person to the Father, they will not come but will harden their hearts. Preaching the Gospel of Christ is foolishness but 1 Corinthians 1:21 it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Here is my closing line from my message tomorrow that fits in well here. 3. Brothers and sisters, Though not an Apostle in the sense that Paul was, I also come to you as a bond-servant of God entrusted with this duty to preach this Gospel to you here today and I earnestly desire a response of faith in you - BUT it is not about me or how effective a preacher I may or may not be –but it is all about bringing glory to God. God, who in time and by this foolish means, is saving those even now here today who are His chosen ones and bringing them to the knowledge of the Truth that they may glorify Him by pursuing godliness and striving for the Hope of Eternal life that He promised them long ago before time began. There is something better, indeed! Peace, Steve Bill burns wrote: > Greetings, > > Bro. David you make good points but I take exception to the statement > that God chose Man before the foundations of the World. I dont think > God ever planned that people would live on earth. He had 1 man, Adam, > and that was it. Adam couldnt find a suitable companion and was not > complete. Then, God thought of Eve and the natural process of > reproduction began. > > Secondly, if there are those predestine for Heaven and Hell......Why do > we try to save people? Why the Great Commission? Ill stay with Eph > 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 and try to get people to come to Him as earthly > as that may seem to the TULIPs. > > Bill Burns > > Pastor David Warner <dwarner@...> wrote: > > Brother Derick, > I do not see anything in your post, especially in the following > quote, that > is different than what I have been saying. > > "Finally, we do choose God yet our choice is based upon God first choice > not upon our total independent free-will. I often tell people that the > Bible gives two perspectives. One is a human/earthly perspective and > the other is a Heavenly perspective." > > David Warner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:44 AM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Question on Elected to be like Christ > > > > David, > > You ask a good question. I will be wordy in my response because it is > an important question. > > First, the issue is not whether God could save everyone, we all agree > God coul! d save everyone. Afterall, He is Soveriegn. > > Secondly, on a personal level, when I realize that God saved me and > chose me before the foundations of the world, I am more humbled and > appreciative of His grace. I bow my head in humbleness praising God > that He chose me. In fact, I often ask, "God, why have you had grace on > a sinner such as me?" To me, the great hymn "Amazing Grace" is truly a > heart cry that God has allowed me to sing to Him. For God did not have > to save anyone and it would have made God just as loving and Just. Yet, > God chose to save some. Now that I know He has saved me, I am not only > humbled but amazed. God has chosen me! What a glorious and wonderful > thing God has done to such a one as undeserving as I. > > Thirdly, God is glorified in the destruction of others and He is under > no obligation to save anyone. Thus, even the sinners who God allows to > be destroyed will bring glory to God and allow us to sing our praises > that ! much more to God. In Revelation, the saints in heaven kept asking > how much longer it would be before the wicked are destroyed. Is it > because they wanted to "get revenge?" No, because an ultimately holy > God would satisfy His wrath and be glorified. > > Finally, we do choose God yet our choice is based upon God first choice > not upon our total independent free-will. I often tell people that the > Bible gives two perspectives. One is a human/earthly perspective and > the other is a Heavenly perspective. It is like what happened in the > book of Job. He did not see all that was happening in heaven and that > God was in total control. Yet, we see the view of Job and how he had > gone through such a trial. Thus, salvation is the same. There is the > human/earthly perspective that "You must repent and believe" and "You > need to come to Christ." Yet, there is also the heavenly perspective. > In this perspective we see that God chose man before the foundations of > the! world. We see that no one can come to the Son unless our Father in > Heaven draws him. Thus, humanly people may come and ask you to be > saved. In heaven it is God who is drawing that person to salvation. > This has a theological term, "compatibalism". Yet, it also has a > reality about it that is very Biblical in my understanding of the Word > of God. > ------------------------------------ > Wallers Baptist Church > Pastor > derick@... > PO Box 95 > Partlow VA 22534 > tel: 540-582-5703 > mobile: 540-894-1772 > www.thedickensfamily.org > ------------------------------------ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pastor David Warner [mailto:dwarner@...] > > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:52 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: [PastorsForum] Question on Elected to be like Christ > > > > > > In your theology, since a man has no choice and when God > > saved a man, why does He no! t save all to the same salvation? > > Why do some of those saved once believe they have a choice, > > some believe God saved them perhaps even again their will (at > > first until they realize they are alive and repent) and some > > think you can choose to be saved and then choose to not be > > saved and then choose to be saved again? > > > > David Warner > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 4:38 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Elected to be like Christ > > > > > > The problem with the accept mentality is that is only > > mentioned once in the Bible and is not what is usually > > associated with coming to Christ. More often the ideas of > > repent and believe are used. Thus, the idea that we just > > accept the gift is not at all the concept being conveyed in > &! gt; the Bible. I see is less as accepting Christ and more as > > being made from being dead to alive which transforms us into > > repentant believers. Acceptance does not deal with the major > > issues of infinite sin against a Holy God. Thus, even in the > > jail illustration that the governor "Pardoned" us, it left > > out the core of the Gospel. The core of the Gospel is that > > we are thrusted into deep repentance towards God that can > > only be done because God first caused us to repent. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Wallers Baptist Church > > Pastor > > derick@... > > PO Box 95 > > Partlow VA 22534 > > tel: 540-582-5703 > > mobile: 540-894-1772 > > www.thedickensfamily.org > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] > > > Sent: Friday, Januar! y 21, 2005 4:24 PM > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Elected to be like Christ > > > > > > > > > I am just using the words of Rev. Parton from the message > > that Jerry > > > posted a while back. > > > > > > Peace, > > > steve > > > > > > Pastor David Warner wrote: > > > > > > > The problem with your story is that we don't so much chose > > > heaven as > > > > we accept or reject the free gift He offers. DW > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] > > > > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:44 PM > > > > To: pastorsforum@... > > > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Elected to be like Christ > > > > > > > > > > > > DW, > > > > There once was a very bad man who had di! ed. He was so > > bad that > > > > after he died he was bound in shackles (hands and feet) and > > > placed in > > > > a prison cell on a long table. They locked the prison cell > > > door and > > > > threw away the key. Then they sealed the prison entryway with > > > > concrete so that no one could get in or out. Then they > > > placed armed > > > > guards in front of the prison on 24/7 watch. > > > > Then Jesus came along and he walked past the guards. > > > Jesus broke > > > > through the concrete that had sealed the door and entered > > > the prison. > > > > Jesus opened the lock on the cell with out any key. Jesus > > > broke the > > > > shackles off the man's hands and feet. Then Jesus said > > to the dead > > > > man > > > > - "I give you new life". The man's heart instantly started > > > beating with > > ! > > life and he suddenly awoke and saw Jesus standing there. > > > He looked at > > > > his hands and feet and saw the marks where the chains, now > > > on the floor, > > > > had bound him. With great excitement he jumped off the > > table he was > > > > lying on and ran out of the prison cell that had been > > > locked and the key > > > > thrown away. With great joy he stumbled over the rubble of > > > the concrete > > > > that had sealed the doorway. And then he bounded past the > > > armed guards > > > > and as he ran into the city with the warm sun shining on > > him and the > > > > fresh air filling his lungs he shouted "Praise Be, Look > > > what I've done!!". > > > > > > > > This story is the logical conclusion to the "I chose > > > heaven" theology. > > > > > > > > Peace, > > > > Steve > > &g! t; > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pastor David Warner wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>If the governor of a state should declare a pardon to all > > > the guilty > > > >>in his state prisons who receive his pardon by > > acknowledging their > > > >>crimes, repenting of committing them, and ask the governor > > > personally > > > >>for release, then they could go free. Those who didn't > > > believe it was > > > >>real; those who were enjoying their present condition > > too much to > > > >>even ask; those who would not acknowledge their crime, > > > would remain in > > > >>prison. The result is not a universal flinging open of > > the prison > > > >>doors but a legitimate universal (state wide in this > > > instance) offer > > > >>of freedom to all who repent and believe! . Now this is > > > perhaps a poor > > > >>illustration and will probably convince no one. It will at > > > best get > > > >>an "amen" from those who understand the Bible to teach a > > world-wide > > > >>offer of salvation thru the completed work of Jesus Christ > > > who Paid It > > > >>All and an "oh me" from those who see it as a universal > > > declaration of > > > >>freedom for all prisoners. > > > >> > > > >>David W > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > > liberty; and in > > > > all things, charity." > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe,! send ANY message to: > > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > > liberty; and in > > > > all things, charity." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > ++++++++++++++++ > > > Pastor Steven G. Rockhill > > > Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church > > > PO Box 88 > > > Lisbon, NY 13658 > > > 315-393-9041 > > > revrock@... > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > +++++++++++++++ > > > > > > -- > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and in > > > all things, charity." > > >> > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, > > liberty; and in all things, charity." > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > in all > things, charity." > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > in all things, charity." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=29915/*http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250> -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pastor Steven G. Rockhill Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church PO Box 88 Lisbon, NY 13658 315-393-9041 revrock@... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++