Hey Gang lets end the discussion of WHOSOEVER and BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF
THE WORLD. We got the Point across on the Subject.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry" <jelewis@...>
To: <pastorsforum@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Before the foundation of the World
> Derick,
>
> No one said that any verses should be taken out of the Bible. Why do you
> throw that into the mix????
>
> Now, do understand, the issue of election and Calvinistic theology does
not
> rise or fall on my ability to answer your two verses.
>
> You have already appealed to a level of argument where I cannot go, the
> Greek language. I will have to sit back and let others pursue those lines
> of discussion. I chose to invest my time majoring in other avenues of
study
> and bypassed the Greek. I have no regrets there. I can and do use Greek
> and Hebrew helps and resources, and they are sufficient for me.
>
> Scholars better than both you or me have already dug deep holes over this
> issue. They continue to split hairs over it. There are good,
> Bible -believing scholars on both sides of the issue.
>
> Regarding Romans 3:11 .... This is a general statement that describes
> unregenerate and sinful people. It is not true of every single person at
> every moment in time. The feet of every single person in the world are
not
> swift to shed blood. This is an indictment against people who do not
> believe in God. There are many people who do seek after God. Lot was
> declared righteous. The parents of John Baptist were righteous.
>
> Regarding John 6:37 .... This verse may hint after, but does not
establish,
> the doctrines of election and irresistible grace. There are other verses
> in the Bible that indicate that God DOES call people who resist His grace
> and do not come into the fold. When Jesus looked over the city of
> Jerusalem, He lamented their refusal to receive Him even though God had
sent
> prophet after prophet unto them.
>
> Matt 23:37-39
> 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest
them
> which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children
> together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye
would
> not!
> 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
> 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,
> Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
>
> Their refusal was by freedom of choice, not because God predestined them
to
> be lost.
>
> Now, I stated before that I believe that the Bible teaches that God is
> calling all people to come unto Him, that He draws everyone. Some resist
> and refuse.
>
> When Jesus gave the Great Commission to the Church, He was calling and
> drawing all men, for the great commission directed the Church to teach
"all
> nations" and " preach the gospel to every creature." The fact that the
> gospel was to be preached to every creature proves that it is God's will
to
> save every person. The Holy Spirit works with the Word of God to make it
> real to those who hear it and receive it.
>
> When the Lord Jesus states that He is come to seek and to save them that
are
> lost, we have another indication of His plan and His will. It IS God's
will
> to save the lost, for that is what Jesus came to do. Who are the lost???
> All of humanity are lost and need a Savior. Christ died for all. The
> Gospel is for all. Sadly, though, many do not receive Him. It is by
their
> choice. "...how often would I have gathered thy children together, even
as
> a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
>
> Calvinism is "convoluted theology" because one has to engage in mental
> gymnastics to swallow statements like this .... "Christ died for those He
> knew would get saved."
>
> Can you hear me gagging?????? I have already posted my reasons for
> believing that the Bible teaches He died for all sinners.
>
> What is the place of intercessory prayer in reformed theology????
> Why pray and intercede for people to be saved if their salvation is
> pre-ordained and will happen if they are the elect????
>
> Jerry L
> Southside Baptist Church
>
> PS: This topic has been interesting and challenging ... but I am growing
> weary of it. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. However, it is taking
too
> much of my time reading and responding to mail. I am ready to move on to
> other topics, hopefully, less demanding of our time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derick Dickens" <Derick@...>
> To: <pastorsforum@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Before the foundation of the World
>
>
> >I love the "Convoluted" theology issue. Especailly when NO ONE has
> > adddressed the verses we have been setting forth. Steve and I have been
> > addressing your verses and then showing our own. No one is answering my
> > questions on John 6 and Romans 3:11. I guess people don't like them
> > because they are "convoluted" verses that cannot be explained so they
> > should be taken out of the Bible.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Wallers Baptist Church
> > Pastor
> > derick@...
> > PO Box 95
> > Partlow VA 22534
> > tel: 540-582-5703
> > mobile: 540-894-1772
> > www.thedickensfamily.org
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jerry [mailto:jelewis@...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:15 PM
> >> To: pastorsforum@...
> >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Before the foundation of the World
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> That is why I posed a previous question regarding Asians ....
> >> Most of the
> >> people of Asia and India have never heard the Gospel. Did
> >> God predestine
> >> them to hell by not sending the gospel unto them? Of course
> >> not. Christians
> >> have not fully obeyed the great commission to carry the
> >> gospel unto them.
> >>
> >> I still say that this (Calvinism) is convoluted theology!!!!
> >>
> >> Jerry L
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "mcantrell" <mcantrell@...>
> >> To: <pastorsforum@...>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:43 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Before the foundation of the World
> >>
> >>
> >> > Steve, Derick, I have a couple questions. What about
> >> those who never
> >> > heard
> >> > or will never hear. Are not any of them in the "Elect"?
> >> What about the
> >> > infants of those who never heard or hear? I know we have
> >> been there
> >> > before,
> >> > but I want to know how that fits into your theology.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Mike Cantrell
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Steven G. Rockhill" <revrock@...>
> >> > To: <pastorsforum@...>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:36 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Before the foundation of the World
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Jeff Hallmark wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > See below
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "Steven G. Rockhill" <revrock@...>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>Charlie,
> >> >> >> If you were not elect you would never get to the
> >> point where you
> >> >> >>would want to give your life to Christ. Only those
> >> chosen in Him
> >> >> >>before the foundation of the world will come and respond to both
> >> >> >>the inward and outward call of God. Again Rom. 3 -
> >> there are none
> >> >> >>who seek after God, no not one!!! And John 6 all that
> >> the Father
> >> >> >>gives Him will come. But there are many who respond to
> >> the outward
> >> >> >>call of the Gospel but are not true believers (like the
> >> seed among
> >> >> >>the rocks and thorns in the parable of the sower -
> >> eventually their
> >> >> >>fruits or lack thereof will bear this out).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bro. Steve, are you saying everyone who has come to the point of
> >> >> > giving
> >> > their life to
> >> >> > Christ is chosen, ie.. elect.
> >> >>
> >> >> (STeve) - No, I am saying that only those whom Christ died for are
> >> >> the elect. The elected will be gathered to Christ by hearing/or
> >> >> reading the Gospel message. They will receive the Call of
> >> the Gospel
> >> >> both outwardly with their physical hearing apparatus - or other
> >> >> method for the deaf and inwardly by the work of the Holy Spirit
> >> >> reviving their hearts. And they will respond through the gift of
> >> >> Faith given to them by the Grace of God (not of works). They will
> >> >> publicly profess Christ with their mouth and bear the
> >> fruit of good works that Christ has appointed for them.
> >> >> Many 'come to the point' but only of the outward Call and they
> >> >> will be like the seed sown among the rocks or thorns. But
> >> they will
> >> >> not be inwardly called unless they are of the elect. Many profess
> >> >> but not all are true.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Could it be that some (dare I say) that some preacher even on the
> >> > pastorforum is not
> >> >> > of the elect.
> >> >>
> >> >> (Steve) - yes it is a possibility but I trust and hope it is not a
> >> >> reality. Only God is the discerner of hearts.
> >> >> Here is why I believe it is possible: Matthew 7:20-23 20
> >> >> "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 " Not
> >> everyone who
> >> >> says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of
> >> heaven, but he
> >> >> who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will
> >> say to Me in
> >> >> that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your
> >> name, cast out
> >> >> demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And
> >> >> then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart
> >> from Me, you
> >> >> who practice lawlessness!'
> >> >> These whom Jesus speaks of were 'ministering' in His
> >> name - but He
> >> >> does not know them.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I mean, I am not of reform, calvanist or coverent thology, and
> >> >> > since
> >> > according to some
> >> >> > it is the true gospel. Are you saying that I am not of the elect.
> >> >>
> >> >> (Steve)
> >> >> Jeff, I believe that reformed/calvinist/covenantal theology is
> >> >> true Biblical theology. But I am just a man, I am not
> >> perfect, I do
> >> >> not have all the answers, and there are still many things
> >> that I am
> >> >> not certain on but at this time what I believe, I believe is the
> >> >> truth - unless I can be shown clearly from the Scriptures
> >> alone which
> >> >> is the only authority in matters of faith and doctrine - my
> >> >> conscience bearing witness I cannot, I will not recant. Here I
> >> >> stand. :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> As to your personal faith and relationship with the Lord -
> >> Jeff, I do
> >> >> not and cannot know your heart - only you and the Lord know any
> >> >> certainty about the sincerity of your faith and whether you are
> >> >> chosen in Him before the foundation of the World. From
> >> our limited
> >> >> interaction via email I count you as a true brother in the
> >> Lord. Yes,
> >> >> I strongly disagree with you on these issues we have been
> >> discussing
> >> >> and believe your interpretation is not the right one, but
> >> I am most
> >> >> unwilling to say that because of this you are not of the elect and
> >> >> thus not a brother in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith
> >> >> alone, not by knowledge or works.
> >> >> Here is where the Hyper-Calvinists would come in and say not
> >> >> only that you are lost because of your erroneous doctrine
> >> but that I
> >> >> am lost as well because I accept you as a brother. These
> >> folks are
> >> >> much akin to the early heretical gnostic groups. They
> >> base salvation
> >> >> on knowledge of certain doctrines. This is still heresey
> >> today as it
> >> >> was in the early Church era.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > When I was saved, the soul winner show me Romans 10:13 For
> >> >> > Whosoever
> >> > shall call upon the
> >> >> > name of the Lord shall be saved.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > My faith was not in a prayer, but in the blood of Jesus
> >> Christ and
> >> >> > the
> >> > fact that I was a whosoever.
> >> >> > For which Jesus died. I trust Jesus Christ to be my personal
> >> >> > saviour.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Amen, saved and rejoicing in God's grace and mercy.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Jeff
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I think the story has been told from both sides about Whitfield
> >> >> (Calvinist) and Wesley (arminian) and somebody asks one if
> >> they will
> >> >> see the other in Heaven and the response is "No, for I
> >> will be so far
> >> >> back and he will be so far closer to the Lord that I will not see
> >> >> him".
> >> >>
> >> >> Praise God for His indescribable Gift!!!
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Peace and Grace,
> >> >> Steve
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>Peace and Grace,
> >> >> >>Steve
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Charlie Carroll Jr. wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>Derick,
> >> >> >>>I probably should not even get in this discusion because I have
> >> >> >>>not been keeping up with it. But are you saying that
> >> if I wanted
> >> >> >>>to give my life to Christ and lived my life as such.
> >> But God did
> >> >> >>>not choose me, I am doomed to hell? here because of
> >> Jesus Charlie
> >> >> >>>Phil.4:13
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>> From: Derick Dickens <mailto:Derick@...>
> >> >> >>> To: pastorsforum@...
> >> <mailto:pastorsforum@...>
> >> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 2:54 PM
> >> >> >>> Subject: [PastorsForum] Before the foundation of the World
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Mike,
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> We have mentioned the "whosoever" a numerous number
> >> of times.
> >> >> >>> "Whosoever" is nowhere in any greek manuscript.
> >> The word some
> >> >> >>>use
> >> >> >>> is "pas" but that is not even close to how it was
> >> translated.
> >> > "Pas"
> >> >> >>> does not mean "Whosoever". David Powell did a great job in
> >> >> >>> showing
> >> >> >>> that the idea of whosoever was a late idea not one
> >> that comes from
> >> >> >>> the text. Just some thoughts. Derick
> >> >> >>>Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Pastor Wallers Baptist Church
> >> >> >>> PO Box 95
> >> >> >>> Partlow VA 22534
> >> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>>><http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&
> >> csz=Partlo
> >> >>>>w+VA+
> >> > 22534&country=us>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> derick@...
> >> <mailto:derick@...>
> >> >> >>> www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/>
> >> >> >>> tel:
> >> >> >>> mobile: 540-582-5703
> >> >> >>> 540-894-1772
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Signature powered by Plaxo
> >> <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a
> >> >> >>> signature like this? <http://www.plaxo.com/signature>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Add me to your address book...
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=39367764
> >> >> >>> 7>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >>> From: Mike Tittle [mailto:drmike1@...]
> >> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 2:35 PM
> >> >> >>> To: pastorsforum@...
> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] THe "H" Word
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Derick,
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I do not think God is a respector of persons.
> >> The statement I
> >> >> >>> made was a result of what I have read from these posts.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I see it this way:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> John 3:16
> >> >> >>> For God so loved the world, that he gave
> >> his only begotten
> >> >> >>> Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
> >> >> >>> but
> >> > have
> >> >> >>> everlasting life.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> This does not say that God chooses some to be
> >> saved and others
> >> >> >>> lost, it says that "whosoever believes" shall
> >> have everlasting
> >> >> >>> life.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Before the foundation of the earth, God knew
> >> man would sin, so
> >> >> >>> He provided a saviour for those sinners. I
> >> think all will
> >> >> >>> have
> >> >> >>> an opportunity to be saved, but not all will accept the
> >> >> >>> opportunity. You know, there is one
> >> >> >>>thing we agree on. There are cultural
> >> >> >>> differences between us. I am
> >> happy to be
> >> >> >>>a hillbilly, and I am happy to be a Tennessee
> >> >> >>> Volunteer, but I am most happy that I know Jesus
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Mike
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> >> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
> >> >>
> >> >> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> >> liberty; and in
> >> >> all
> >> > things, charity."
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >> >> Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date:
> >> 1/21/2005
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >> > Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> >> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
> >> >
> >> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> >> liberty; and in
> >> > all
> >> > things, charity."
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> >> pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
> >>
> >> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things,
> >> liberty; and in all things, charity."
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in
all
> > things, charity."
> >
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
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> "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all
things, charity."
>